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les genser

a potential new option

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Hi Marina - maybe a good way to email to him would be to send the link for this particular topic:

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cb/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1293084254/99#99

....so he can hopefully just click'n go?

And while we're at it, here's the link for high flow 100% oxygen info - it details the effective method of O2 use that doctors don't prescribe:

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/O2/index.html

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You're welcome Marina, and gee willikers Clustermom13, I hadn't seen your post about the 'send to a friend' button before I piped in.

I really shoulda known about that already - thanks for pointing it out.  :)

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Hey les.

I got some tincture. The only available locally is 1:1.

I need help. How much of this would you recommend I take.

I'm ready to try it and I thank you for your posts.

Dan

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Hi Dan. 1:1 would make it a very high potency extract. I'm trying to guesstimate a dose...

Try this: 8 drops in about an ounce of water. You should notice an appreciable lift in mood in about twenty to thirty minutes. I'm not at all sure of the strength of what you have, so watch for any unpleasantness.

If you are ok with that, you can repeat this three times daily, spaced evenly. I would recommend the last dose at least two hours before you wish to go to bed.

If you do have any adverse effects, don't freak out they will pass, and it would feel like a mild hangover. In that case, cut the dose in half. If on the other hand you don't get any positive result, you can start walking it up.

I'm just not positive due to not knowing what you're working with there, but try it and we'll see.

Let me know, I'll be here.

Les

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Some more general information:

In response to some questions I hit the research some more and I am now fairly convinced of two things:

1. DGL licorice tinctures, that is those with the glycyrrhizin removed will NOT work. The phytoestrogens which I believe to be the effective components here are compounds called flavonoids, and are derivatives of glycyrrhizin.

2. For similar reasons, I suspect that glycerates, tinctures in which the alcohol has been replaced with glycerin, will also NOT work. My reasoning here is that the alcohol is heated off a regular tincture to make the glycerate, and I believe the heat is damaging or inactivating in some way those same flavonoids.

Just for fun, want to see some of the hot stuff I've been plowing through? Its amazing this doesn't cause a full blower by itself. Here's a small taste:

The results demonstrated that the isoflavans glabridin and 4'-O-methylglabridin (4'-OMeG) and the isoflavene glabrene inhibited serotonin re-uptake by 60, 53 and 47%, respectively, at 50 µM, whereas resorcinol, the isoflavan 2'-O-methylglabridin (2'-OMeG), and the isoflavones genistein and daidzein were inactive. The inhibition of serotonin re-uptake is dose dependant with glabridin and estradiol. These results emphasize the importance of the lipophilic part of the isoflavans, as well as the hydroxyl at position 2' on ring B. In conclusion, this study showed that several isoflavans are unique phytoestrogens, which like estradiol, affects the serotonergic system and inhibits serotonin re-uptake and, thus, potentially may be beneficial for mild to moderate depression in pre- and postmenopausal women.

Hot damn. Nothing quite like trying to remember biochemistry from 40 years ago. Here is a slightly friendlier one:

9. Licorice Root. While scientists believe that most forms of depression are caused either by neurotransmitter uptake, increased MAO levels, or both, they have just begun to realize that licorice root (Glycyrrhiza glabra) can be extremely beneficial when battling depression."

Dr David W Tanton, Ph.D., Antidepressants, Antipsychotics, And Stimulants - Dangerous Drugs on Trial

I am virtually sure that energetic or stressor-induced imbalance in the HPA axis (hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal) is the proximate cause of cluster headache. This plant goes right for it like a bee to a honeysuckle. The licorice works on the exact same receptors that hallucinogens do. Any modalities other than these two are simply palliative; they will address symptoms which are secondary.

My own situation remains stable. I am still pain free. I have only taken the tincture a few times, either in advance of being exposed to environmental triggers or after the same when I felt a little dicey. I still (increasingly rarely) feel the triggers (I guess the same thing some of you refer to as 'shadows') but its' ridiculous...I actually have confidence that they won't turn into scream attacks, and they haven't.

I'll keep you posted.

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I have sent for some of this Liquorice for my son. I have also sent him all the information I have kindly been given from all you lovely people. I'm hoping this helps him.

As a matter of interest, I have been reading all the different cases on here. It seems that a lot of people walk about a lot when having the CH. My son lies on the floor and holding his head and writhing about and his leg seems to have marked tremours or spasms at the same time. I haven't seen him walking about but I live 60 miles away so only know what I've seen. After taking the injection and it reducing the CH he goes to sleep for about 1-2 hours. When he used to drive a truck he would have the injection and then just try his best to carry on but now, when he is not at work he goes to sleep after an attack. I think he is so exausted, also the effects of the Verapamil and Sumatriptin.

seem to be having bad side effects. A lot of sufferers say they can't lie down. I haven' t read of any lying down like my son.

Thanks again for everyones help. It's good to be able to talk about it.

Marina

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Marina, while a lot of CH'ers 'do the dance' and can't imagine anyone lying down, some do respond in a different way and will do their writhing lying down. :-? It's not that uncommon.

I know you're concerned about the effects of sumatriptan. While he's still on it, I suppose we should check into what sort of injection dosage he's taking, because what can be a major game changer there is the fact that dosages, and their side effects, can be significantly reduced (as in cut by 1/3 or 1/2) and still be just as effective.

Here's the link to the imitrex tip that outlines how to do this, if this isn't something you've seen, or your son hasn't been doing already:

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/imitrex.html

(also this tip assumes  6 mg injections, but I seem to recall some folks reporting they've been prescribed  something like 4 mg injections in the UK??)

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just an update as far as my experience with licorice root goes..

I started it tues jan 11 and went cluster free until this past saturday where i was disturbed out of a sleep 2 and a half hours in(big time trigger for me) i didnt get hit right away but sure enough the clusters ensued at 3 am.  The next night at 3 am they came back but on the other side of my head (rarely do i get attacks on my left side) It wasn't nearly as painful as the clusters normally are and very short in duration.  If there was ever a "puzzling" cluster i would have called it that.

I kept on with the tincture.. got through Sunday ok but monday I was hit at work, probably a combination of triggers (stress, glare from ridiculous amounts of flourescents, but who knows anymore).  This morning I was hit at 10am for an hour and a half... it has my body still hurting 4 and a half hours after.

I'm not giving up on the tincture.. hell after my friend didn't come through with the mushies what choice do I have.

Hopefully the sleep disturbance was the culprit and things will settle back down.  I'd be lying if I said I was hopeful though.  These clustercrappity smacks are something else. How do we live like this.  I find it hard to come on the boards when I see people who have been chronic for 37 years or in that vicinity.  How in the hell do you hold on?

Any angels out there? I'm losing hope fast.

Keep you all posted. 

PS Les, scary shit that they came back on other side after the trigger point therapy fixed them on the right.. any suspicions why?

Hope you are doing alright and not living in Canada. It was -20 yesterday and +4 today.  Even the squirrels around me must be suffering migraines or clusters because i don't even see them out.

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Hang in there Sam!  Where there's a will, there's a way.

Maybe give the taurine supplement a try in th interum?

I also urge you to reread Les' posts.  You want to make sure that you are following his instructions as closely as possible.

Bob

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Yeah, Sam, not only did they come back on the other side after two years, they came back chronic where before they were just heavy episodic.  And yes, I was righteously pissed.

Sorry about the temps. If it makes you feel any better, I live on the western summit of the Allegheny Mountains and in Winter I don't see the sun for five months, and we get lake effect snow every frigging day.

Sorry you are having problems, but they seem familiar to me.

1. I was getting the night triggers, which had previously been hitting me three times a night. When I started the tincture I still got them, but the difference was the trigger woke me before the pain kicked in, so if I was flushing I got up for a minute and cooled down, did some acupressure or just 'breathing and blowing'; The pain (and I guess it hurt, just nothing like 'normal') would fade to nothing and in five minutes I'd be back asleep. It sometimes happened three times a night at two hour intervals, but it faded after about a week and a half. My suggestion is if you wake up thinking that you are triggering, treat it like you are and try to have faith that you will NOT convert to a full blower.

2. The temporary side switch is not necessarily a bad sign. You are disrupting your pattern, thats a good thing.

3. This whole series of hits sounds to me like what I call 'outside in'; environmental or allergic type triggers which when they would hit me would send me on twenty four hour sleighrides to hell. So I would ask you to consider if you have been exposed; also, and this could be painful advice, are you inadvertently triggering yourself.... I know I was in denial myself for 37 years, but when I finally stopped smoking I realized that I was rebound triggering myself with nicotine constantly. (I actually experimented on myself after I quit, I am that masochistic, and I was right.) I was in even more denial over pot smoking. I blamed the inevitable two-hour-or-less after hit on everything but the culprit, which I did NOT want to give up. (I already couldn't drink at all). I finally stopped, reluctantly, and all those hits went away. Bear in mind that ANYTHING which has vasoconstrictor or metabolic action will result in some degree of rebound; nicotine, caffeine, analgesics, etc. . and yes, fluorescents can be a big time trigger.

4. Is this what you are doing:

    Whole plant extract ( root tincture ) 35-45% alcohol strength 1:5 (NOT DGL licorice.. it won't work)

    Take three doses daily, spread evenly, roughly thirty drops (2ml) each.

5. If this is what you're doing, give it a few more days. Don't give up. It works best if you minimize your triggers. If you are still having problems, my first suggestion would be to cut the dose in half. We are all different, and the dose might be sensitive. If that doesn't work, you could, for the same reasons, start increasing the dose. A full extra dose would still be a reasonable amount of licorice.

Let me know. Les

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AN Update:

I got in touch with a member of the board of the American Herbalists Guild; I have a meeting with her next week. She is pretty excited about this and thinks we can interest some people in following up. She wasn't totally surprised; she knew that licorice could regulate cortisol (She uses it as an antiinflammatory) but she was not really aware of the SSRI activity. I will keep you posted.

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I would like to interest some prominent professional herbalists (she is both on that board and a former student of James Duke who wrote the bestseller "The Green Pharmacy", he's an internationally known ethnobotanist) with connections to schools and research bodies. I have fundamentally two objectives: 1) Am I crazy? Does this work the way I think it does. 2) If an article gets out there, other clinical herbalists will try it in practice and there will be even more feedback.

My ultimate fantasy? That this will prove to be a safe, effective and inexpensive treatment for cluster forever beyond the grasp of the pharmaceutical industry.

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You got me thinking about my ultimate objectives, dammit, and as usual I can't relax and go to work without articulating this; not in as much detail as I would like but thats probably a good thing as I don't wish to bore anyone:

1. We are unique, to my knowledge, in that we suffer from a completely non-malignant yet debilitating syndrome (not a disease) whose causation as yet defies positive identification.

2. That was true; this is part projection and part prophecy: Research will demonstrate that the ultimate causation is emotional; stressor induced imbalance in the HPA axis. (This is FAR from saying it is "our fault", see some of my sources on this, particularly Mate). This same exact causative mechanism will be implicated in virtually all of the autoimmune diseases and most if not all cancers. This is already happening, although it is largely ignored by big science. It won't be forever.

3. Because of our unique position, and the fact that we can be articulate about it (descriptive), and the additional criteria that what works is instantly observable without waiting years for study results, we make be perfectly positioned to be the catalysts in this field. Our suffering may ultimately be the key to ameliorating some of the plagues of the modern era.

4. This stuff has helped me immeasurably: See some of the work of Dr. Gabor Mate ("When the Body Says No"), Dr. David Dawkins on healing and recovery, Dr. Candace Pert ("Molecules of Emotion").

I really want us all to get rid of these Fing things.

Oh, and I want to rule the world. Mwahaha.

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See for me Les, the wonderful phraseology of your post combined with the subject title was the hook.....

.....and then the bonus was what you recommended.

I had a wonderful mother who spent hours at the health food stores reading and researching tinctures in my 1993 cycle.  It was the first cycle to really go "rogue" and out of character in many ways.  Tripled in it's staying power for sure!!!  I remember a ginger tincture, under the tongue that just burned like hell!  LOL 

It's her love I recall the most.

So for me, reading a post about a tincture conjures up some bitter sweet memories (and I know my mother would have jumped for joy saying, "Lets go, lets go.....we need to give this a try!"

Thanks for the message.

The fifth Chakra is considered to be the channel of communication between the body and the greater environment,

Cindy

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Hi prolosam. So, you're living in Canada? Would it be impossible for you to start a psilocybe mushroom garden? Ron

not impossible, just very difficult. There used to be a place that sold inoculated jars but not anymore.  To be honest, I'm trying to just hold on here and inoculating jars seems like it would be impossible for me.  Though as I write this, i realize that I sound lazy and should at least try.  Is it ralph spores that are still around? I forgot the website. I really thought one of my wifey's friends was going to come through and they had me believing they would. But I guess I need to start taking matters into my own hands.

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les,

This whole series of hits sounds to me like what I call 'outside in'; environmental or allergic type triggers which when they would hit me would send me on twenty four hour sleighrides to hell. So I would ask you to consider if you have been exposed; also, and this could be painful advice, are you inadvertently triggering yourself.... I know I was in denial myself for 37 years, but when I finally stopped smoking I realized that I was rebound triggering myself with nicotine constantly. (I actually experimented on myself after I quit, I am that masochistic, and I was right.) I was in even more denial over pot smoking. I blamed the inevitable two-hour-or-less after hit on everything but the culprit, which I did NOT want to give up. (I already couldn't drink at all). I finally stopped, reluctantly, and all those hits went away. Bear in mind that ANYTHING which has vasoconstrictor or metabolic action will result in some degree of rebound; nicotine, caffeine, analgesics, etc. . and yes, fluorescents can be a big time trigger.

-- I quit smoking cigarettes in april of last year, quit smoking weed in december just weeks before i came out of remission.  Haven't slipped up since.  I always thought weed ws a trigger but i kept at it... i guess we were in same boat when it came to the denial.  I do drink caffeine (do you think i should give it up?) - after weed and alcohol and cigarettes caffeine won't be missed nearly as much. I just hear all the time that caffeine is supposed to help.

In terms of flourescents - I know they are a trigger but I need to work so what do I do? I'm more than happy to quit my job but then what do I do?  I have a sweet deal at work and they are being very understanding about my clusters but that being said, i went in this afternoon and started shadowing heavily within 30 minutes.  That being said, if the flourescents continue to trigger - i will leave the job and try to find a way.4.

Is this what you are doing:

    Whole plant extract ( root tincture ) 35-45% alcohol strength 1:5 (NOT DGL licorice.. it won't work)

-- My bottle doesn't have a ratio on it... it just says its the organic licrorice root in its strange name latin or whateveter name, don't have the bottle beside me so i can't say what it is but i'll edit it when i'm home but i checked that it was the same thing you had posted earlier, i'm not sure if I should be taking more? 

I've been taking 3 doses daily.  I think I need to up the number of drops.

Also in terms of analgesics, i don't even take tylenol let alone advil.  So anything else you can think of that i should stay away from?? I know my dogs probably don't help but i already have them sleeping in another room.

It always seemed to me like it was environmental/allergy but I can't figure out what it is or how to avoid it.  for example, flourescents are bloody everywhere.

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