Detox cutting off Verapamil lithium

[Purple]

I had read somewhere I had to stop all other meds before busting. I thought there was a clear page about this, but if there is, I can't find it.

To make a long story short, I decided to turn to busting the other day. I didn't yet get my hands on any shrooms or LSD, but I'm still very confident I will very soon, hopefully LSD.

Meanwhile, I started detoxing from my pills. I was on 720 mg Verapamil and 900 mg of lithium.

This morning I took 120mg Verapamil and I will take my last 300mg of lithium later tonight, along with another 120mg Verapamil.

So tomorrow, Monday, I was planing to take only 120mg Verapamil in the morning, and that will do it for any meds I'm taking.

Do I have to wait 5 days starting Tuesday for busting? OMG, that promises to be a very long 5 days.

Note: even though I had a clear shadow all day and even though I fear a visit of the beast tonight, I must say I already feel much better. It's as if someone had opened the door of a cell I was locked in.

These meds are... these doctors are... ok, ok, let's not get carried away

Thanks in advance everyone

:-)

[CHfather]

Here's the page about interaction between meds and busting: http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cb/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1290130731

And here's what I have learned here (and a little bit in other places) about verap and lithium (which is also in that file above) in relation to busting.  If I'm wrong, I hope I will be corrected.

Some people have had success busting while on verapamil.  Often they said it was partial success, and they believed that if they had been completely off verap the success of their busting would have been better--but they did get relief.

Lithium can increase the psychedelic effects of LSD and psilocybin.  I don't know for how many days after stopping it that would be true.  It's also my impression that stopping lithium too quickly can be bad for you, but I don't remember where I read that, so I could be wrong.  It's also true that one reason that lithium is not a great agent is that stopping lithium can result in severe rebound headaches.  (If you want to see the abstract of a study about that, it's here: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1526-4610.1981.hed2104132.x/abstract)

Here's what is written about lithium in that file I linked to in the first paragraph:

>>>Anecdotal reports suggest that lithium can greatly potentiate the effects of LSD or mushrooms, and that it can produce very unpleasant feelings. An examination of a number of reports suggested that lithium can either increase or decrease effects.   The combination of lithium and tryptamines may even produce episodes that seem like, and that perhaps are, epileptic seizures. If people are taking lithium for treating cluster headaches and it is not working, they may want to talk with their doctor about not taking it any more before trying mushrooms or LSD.<<

So here's the conclusion I reach--this is just me, I'm not telling you what to do.  IF you stop the lithium and it's out of your system pretty quickly (I just don't know how quickly that happens, but maybe someone else will), you could bust pretty much as soon as the lithium's out of your system, since some remaining verapamil should not prevent you from having some initial success with busting.    But I'd be cautious about doing anything too quickly with stopping the lithium.

Since you don't have oxygen, have you tried drinking an energy drink quickly at the beginning of an attack (a drink high in caffeine and taurine, such as RedBull or Monster brand drinks)?  Have you tried taking melatonin at night?  Are you considering vitamin D3 or licorice root?  (You don't have to answer these questions -- I'm just looking for things that might help you handle the "detox" period more easily.)

[alleyoop]

From:

http://www.bipolarworld.net/Medications/Mood%20Stabilizers/meds6.htm

"The elimination half-life of lithium averages 20 to 24 hours. Half-life in geriatric patients and patients with impaired renal function is increased, 36 and 40 to 50 hours have been reported respectively."

[Purple]

I think I have read here that regular meds for CH (verapamil, lithium, triptans...) actually extend the cycle.

Not sure, but what I know is that the decision to stop my medication on Saturday was the best decision I could take.

Going to bed last night, I was really afraid it would be a terrible night with many visits from the beast, as I had a strong shadow.

Well I slept 8 hours straight and woke feeling human again. A clear shadow appeared minutes after I was up and remains, but I feel much, much better than the horrible state I was in last week.

Maybe my cycle was fading out. I'm clearly still in a cycle for I have a strong shadow still, but historically, when my cycle fades out, I have this shadow and maybe small hits, but no more big hits.

But if I had remained on Verapamil and lithium, I'm not sure I would have known. This cycle would have lasted just 4 weeks... it's usually at least 6 weeks, usually 8, but I've had 3 weeks cycles in the past.

But I really wonder if going trough the very bad effects of Verapamil and lithium is worth it. I lived so long with the beast without any meds that I got used to it and I think I rather that... at least with no meds, I can function somewhat in the daytime, but last week, I could barely walk to the kitchen to get me a coffee.

OK, just checked my heart beat: still low (56), so I guess the last Verapamil dose I took last night still has an effect.

I was reading about lithium last night and I understood why I was feeling so weak... muscle pain, feeling weak... I won't touch that stuff ever anymore.

I will get mushrooms and probably LSD either today or tomorrow. I'll see then if that's needed still. I might not be busting after all, but I'll just keep that for the next cycle. I'll see and report back about it all.

[Purple]

moaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnn

I regret I was booooooorn

:'( :'(

[Hipshot]

Good morning purple.

Take it from me...you will feel soooo much better once you get your pulse rate back up to the normal range...between 70 and 100.

I know it's a bitch but it is the only way...just taper off gradually.

You can take the new medicine before you are completely off the old meds. It may or may not be as effective but it certainly won't Hurt.

Make sure to give the new medicine a full try. That is to say...take a dose, wait five days and take another. Repeat until the fecking pain stops.

It initially took three doses for me to get complete relief. My patterns changed after the second dose so I could tell something was happening.

It will also give you hope and will help with depression and attitude.

I hope this helps you. I feel...we all feel your pain.

Dan

[Purple]

Thanks Dan for the support

It was a rough moment, but I'm OK now. As I posted I think on the other board CH.com this morning, it's hard, it's painful and no fun, but I much rather be dealing with this beast I know very well than coping with verapamil and lithium's side effects.

I took my last pills Sunday night, 36 hours ago. I think I did that the way my neuro said. According to what alleyoop posted, I still have lithium in me, but tonight would be good I figure. But I failed getting busting agent yet. Hope to get it today

[CHfather]

Purp, I wonder whether you'd want to buy some rivea corymbosa seeds and have them delivered quickly, in case there are any further delays in finding the other agents you are looking for.  RC seeds work very well for most people.  There is a supplier in Canada, www.tranceplants.net, that looks (from my brief review of the website) as though it will ship overnight, so (because they ship on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday) you could have seeds on Thursday.  Preparation is simple.  You can switch from seeds to other agents when you get them -- but again, seeds are very effective for most people: you would not be getting some kind of "second-class" busting agent.

[Purple]

Thank you soooooo much, CHf, I just ordered 500 seeds, and it should be there Thursday. This site operates next door from me, since they charged me the local tax. And I was able to order COD which is incredible for I don,t have a credit card. The overnight shipping cost are 30$, but Express post from Canada post usually ships the next day and thats 12$.

These seeds are really cheap compared to the crap I bought downtown tonight. The guy said it was just like LSD, but he was refering to the buzz I guess. He calls it Nexus and I think it,s MDMA. I was planning on maybe taking a chance busting with that, but wasn,t sure and...

... your post came as a savior, I,m so happy I have seeds on the way. I,ll just try to survive untill I get the seeds, I had a kip 9 CH at noon and kept a kip I don,t know what (3? I don,t know the scale, anyways it hurt) all day long after.

Thanks again. When I get the seeds, how about I take 100? And the guy downtown will get me shrooms in 2-3 days. Meanwhile my computer stopped working and leaning down trying to fix it triggered my noon CH and this is my old MAC iBook with a keyboard from France that,s why IDK all the keys.

So there is all my story for today, a million thanks just for reading me, I feel supported and that relly makes a difference

[Pixie-elf]

I did a quick look up, that's not MDMA (and some people have reported MDMA making CH worse during cycle.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2C-B

Not really sure what it would do to your CH, but googling it says there may be some cross-tolerance with LSD/Etc, so you might want to wait and try the seeds first.

[Purple]

yes thank you Mystina, I will certainly wait, I'm actually quite afraid of this type of chemical and I'm somewhat sad that this is what is available for the youth nowadays on the street. Long gone (it seems) LSD days were better

[CHfather]

Sending this from iPhone. 100 seeds is too many to start with, particularly because there might still be some lithium in your system. I suggest 35-40. Read Tommyd's file in Clusterbuster Files section, "LSA," for how to prepare.

[Purple]

Thank you for your caring CHfather, I gave it a good thought and had decided for 85 (lithium out 88 hours) but as I say on another thread, at least 50 out of 110 were floating, so maybe I took 60 idk. I think I'm feeling better. It's been 4 hours. I feel like I could have taken more.

[Purple]

Take it from me...you will feel soooo much better once you get your pulse rate back up to the normal range...between 70 and 100.

You Bet Dan, it sure did make a difference, even if I had to live at constant Kip 2-3 and couldn't bend down (as of right now, I can. Wow!), at least I could reach the park with my dog

[CHfather]

Well, that's one vendor we shouldn't recommend again!  So glad you did the floater test.

How much you take is of course up to you, and if you want to go higher, you should.  Two things are relevant here, though. First, you're not likely to get fully better after one dose (in fact, you should be ready for the post-dose hits/"slapbacks" that usually come a day or two after dosing -- hits that are stronger than usual or occur at times different from "normal" times, which indicate that the dose is working).  So, I wouldn't attribute not feeling perfect to not having taken enough.  Second, it seems to be the case that after some point, more is not better -- it's just more.  You have to get enough LSA to have an effect, but 60 seeds is almost always plenty in that regard.  I'm pulling numbers out of the air here, but I'd say that of the 50 people here who have used RC to treat CH, maybe five have felt the need to go above 60 or 70. Some people have taken 100 or more, but in some or even most of those cases it's because lower levels didn't work for them -- and 100 turned out not to work, either.  RC just didn't work for them.

I can't see any big reason for you not to take 100 if that's where you want to go, and now that you've taken the number you have, you have a pretty good idea what 100 would mean.  But I suspect that the 85/60 dose is working as well as 100 would have.

[Purple]

Thanks again CHfather for precious information and deep knowledge of this board.

As discussed on a thread about smoking weed, I do take into consideration a certain anti-depressant if I can use these words effect in order to try to cope with life while in an episode (well it's true for me between episodes also ), whether it triggers a shadow or not... and since LSD was my favorite trip when I was 16-17 years old, well, yes, I was seeing an interest in combining both therapies.

That's why I said I felt I could have taken more: I felt good today for a couple hours and my shadow didn't matter no more.

But is it Ron who posted about his son taking half a dose of LSD and being PF for 5 days? I don't know... I always thought and still think LSD is a good drug. But it's quite strong, and I felt like it was a radical and strong effect like that that could kill the beast.

But then again, I think it was Ricardo posting about the fact that there are many active ingredients in the RC seeds that help us, not only LSA, as opposed to one very concentrated semi-chemical ingredient in LSD.

I was feeling fine, and then I ate cause I hadn't in 15 hours, and then, well yes, Kip 5,5 followed the (light) meal, but since I was warned, I will take it as a sign something is happening.

thanks again for taking time for support. Greatly appreciated, believe me

[CHfather]

I still feel bad about recommending Tranceplants -- but maybe overall it was a good thing since you could get it quickly, and COD.  (They probably sent you a lot more than 500 seeds, too, which is a good thing since so many of them are bad.)

There are some "miracle" stories here of very fast remissions. (Heck, one woman said she became pain free after two doses, of 10 RC seeds and then 12 seeds.) But for most people it takes several doses, five days apart. 

I'm sorry if I'm asking questions you have answered since the last time I asked them, and you don't have to answer them here, but . . . Have you been able to do anything toward getting oxygen?  That quick abort can help your mood, not to mention your pain.  Do you try an energy drink at the start of an attack?  Helps a lot of people: reduces the severity of the attack or sometimes even aborts it completely.  And have you considered the vitamin D3 or licorice root programs?  A lot of people say that licorice root helps with mood, and a lot of people say the same about the D3 regimen.  You can do all these things while busting (though I think Les had some doubts about licorice root and busting).   (I don't mean to compare "mood" with depression, but I figure that maybe anything that gives you a lift might be good.)

[Bonkers]

Purp,

The LSD was Michael's first attempt at 'busting' with psychedelics. It was before we knew anything about RC seeds or any of the other busting agents. Subsequent attempts, with any of them, brought him less PF time. It wasn't noticeable at first - everything worked. For us at least, the law of diminishing returns began operating with the 2nd dose. We didn't notice it because we didn't pay any attention to it. Its effects worked so slowly that we didn't notice them till after we'd busted for over a year. I so much hope that ours is an isolated case; we'll just have to see. Everything seems to work better for episodics.

Ron

[Purple]

Have you been able to do anything toward getting oxygen?That quick abort can help your mood, not to mention your pain.Do you try an energy drink at the start of an attack?Helps a lot of people: reduces the severity of the attack or sometimes even aborts it completely.And have you considered the vitamin D3 or licorice root programs? 

About Oxygen, I remember my neuro saying, the first time I saw her in 2007, that that was for extreme cases only or did she say chronics... It's covered by the state, well province's health care, and the tendency is not to abuse the already chocking health care system with useless costs. I'm sure she'd say no.

Second thing about oxygen: I think I would be afraid of setting the apartment building in flames... I'm a smoker and rather careless... I also see that as kind of a step I don't want to take, something like an elderly you have to convince he/she needs to be in a wheelchair from now on...

I'm certain other episodics are like me: traditionally (after more than a quarter century, one can use that term I guess), after the episode is done with, we just forget about it all (well I'm not a very organized person) and suppose it might have been the last episode. So seeing that bottle sit in the corner for 12 months (or 6 but I hope not) could actually increase my general state of semi-depression I fear. Just like reading these forums here can be a reminder that my life has been messed up completely from age 18. I mean... I spent time the other night counting how many times I saw the very last option as a refreshing one, and it whacked me... 10 times a year average in that 32 years. And it made me realize my life has been a mess in great part because of this. And realize also why I'm not afraid of death. Spiritually, I have no problem with that. It's just a passage. But the thing is, I used to never think back of these times and only look forward cause I know as an episodic there is light at the end of the tunnel and that, once out I will be allowed to think: Maybe that was the last episode. I have a hard time figuring out how chronics can go on. Well seeing that O2 bottle sit in the corner would remind me every day that... oh I'll stop here.

As for the energy drink, bought 2 big cans of Monster. The first one helped killing a K2, the second one the day after didn't seem to help much and my stomach and the rest of the tubes didn't appreciate it seems. It does the same to me when I'm having too many coffees. I think I like coffee better, I'm not sure about taurine.

I'm considering Batch's D3 regimen... Yeah, I think I will go shopping.

Licorice root program? No, I didn't check this one out. I was wanting to check the hormones path, and I spose this could be linked to D3. I want to have a blood test done, but that's another mountain to climb with my neuro I fear.

[Purple]

I still feel bad about recommending Tranceplants 

Well I really appreciate you did. I'll certainly be testing their products and services again. They're in the same province I am, quick... I can even pay them directly from my bank account I think... no credit card here, so this for me is miracle (although I don't believe in miracles). I'll report again on quality and maybe we could give that runner another chance

[CHfather]

Okay, my friend.  First, the neuro that told you that is an IDIOT.  IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT.  There is nothing less useless than oxygen, which aborts an attack for most people within fifteen minutes, and it's far less costly than imitrex, lithium, verapamil, etc., not to mention that it has NO side effects (which of course add to the costs).  What the neuro said is just plain wrong.

Three files you can look at if you want: http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/302/22/2451.full

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/62904898/US-Cluster-Headache-Oxygen-Survey-Early-View-Online-Publication-HEADACHE

2002 report from the major Canadian health advisory group recommending oxygen for CH http://www.inesss.qc.ca/fileadmin/doc/aetmis/Rapports/SoinsDomicile/2002_01_nt_en.pdf

That aside, you're not the only one who has reservations about using oxygen, although most people who overcome those reservations are very happy they did.  You're right about many/most people wanting to forget they have CH when they're not in cycle.  On the other hand, having that tank there for many people reduces the dread.  I am certain that most people here would tell you that O2 is a very positive thing for them (which doesn't mean that it would be for you).

I will tell you why I am so passionate about this.  My daughter had misdiagnosed CH for six years.  By the time she got diagnosed (by me--from the internet), she'd been given so many meds and treatments that didn't work that she refused to try anything.  Her IDIOT neuro prescribed oxygen -- at a flow rate of 8 lpm with nasal cannula.  Surprise: It didn't work, but we didn't know then that it was the wrong prescription, and it couldn't work.  That was the last straw for her, and for the next few years she just endured multi-hour high-KIP attacks with no meds at all.  (She was episodic then, so we're talking about roughly six months a year.)  No energy drinks.  No nothing.  And I visited her once and sat up with her night after night, both of us in anguish.  And I found this site, and people here walked me through the process of getting the right oxygen set-up, which I had to force on her.  And even after it was set up, she wouldn't try it.  She would rather have the agony than one more terrible disappointment.  And one night, in complete desperation she did try the oxygen.  And I will never forget her laughing out loud and giggling as the oxygen took her pain away.  It's not a perfect solution, by any means, but it's a good thing in the real world.  (And you won't blow or burn yourself up.  My daughter's a careless smoker, and I'll bet there are others here who fit that category and use O2.)

If you do the D3 regimen, please be sure to do it all, including the lemonade/limeade.  According to Batch, it's important to do the whole thing. 

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cb/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1314134804

I'm hoping you're on a good path now with the RC.

Jerry

[Pixie-elf]

There's a solution to the tank bothering you out of cycle. Send it back to the home health care company when it's not needed.

[Purple]

thanks, Jerry and Mystina

just to know people read this, understanding, means a lot.

Think my case is somewhat like you're daughter's, I've been convinced so many years nothing could be done, that I was just damned... (well how else to interpret the raise of the shoulders of the drs I'd seen) that I didn't even bother trying to go see a neuro.

And as I speak, I feel the LSA and other substances of these RC seeds working like a repair crew lined all along my neck and in my temple. I feel like this part of my body is presently being fed something it's been missing all along.

And I feel anger growing in me: why do they do that? When it's so obvious O2... and then simple flower seeds...

I'll dare try to go to sleep :-)

[alleyoop]

Really good thread!

Purp, you are getting really good info here.  Thanks Jerry, Mystina, and the rest of you.

Purp with your attitude and honesty, I have no doubt but that you will find the right combination of what will work for you. 

As far as 02 goes, I understand the fear of being "attached" to an oxygen bottle, but it really is a false and unfounded fear.  You don't actually carry a bottle around with you in the sense that a convalescent patient does with nasal cannula and all.  Some of us do keep a small bottle just to take and keep in the car when we have to be away from home during cycle -- just in case! 

You see you are not sucking oxygen to keep CH away; you only use it to abort an attack.  Like Jerry said, most get relief in under 15 minutes, and if you catch it quick enough, you can abort in under 5 minutes.  And it truly is miraculous the first time (and subsequent times) it works for you.  You'll be asking yourself why you didn't do this sooner.

All the best purp, you're on the right track.

bobb

[Purple]

Purp, you are getting really good info here.Thanks Jerry, Mystina, and the rest of you.

Sure am, I can't believe in how many ways you're all so very supportive. Last time I called the clinic, receptionist said there was no more availability with my neuro in the near future, and I suppose that means she flew down south, a normal way to go for us northerners at this time of year where outside temp. often hits minus 15-20 C. But I'll try once more tomorrow, promised, I mean today, boy, that night of sleep was short.