RC and sleep

[CHfather]

Lieutenant2 posted something recently about how well he slept after an RC dose.  Others have written similar things, and it's true for my daughter, also.

In general, her sleep patterns are horrible.  I know this is also common for others.  So I'm wondering two things: (1) Why is it that dosing with RC so often produces such a sound night's sleep--is there anything useful to be learned from that to help people with CH who have sleep problems? and (2) More practically, does anyone use RC as a regular sleep aid -- SPUT method, maybe, or small doses (5, 6 seeds) taken regularly?  Related to (2), does anyone know whether regular SPUTting or low-level doses would somehow mess up serious busting?  My daughter's inability to sleep at night, even when she's exhausted, affects her life cumulatively about as badly as CH does when she's in cycle.  She's taking some serious stuff now to try to help her sleep, but it's not really helping.

Any advice/experience would be much appreciated.

[Lieutenant2]

I'm anxious to hear more about this too, CHF. . .I remain convinced that there is a very strong link between CH and screwed-up sleep patterns. I don't know if it's a chicken/egg thing, or just a self-perpetuating cycle, but the bottom line is that they do seem to go hand-in-hand.

The sleep that I had last weekend was totally deep and restful, whereas my usual "sleep" consists of a lot of tossing and turning. It's pretty rare for me to get any actual REM sleep on most nights, and I was out like a light with the RC.

I tried digging into papers on circadian rythms and how they affect brain chemistry which could in turn affect CH, but most of what I read was just way over my head, medically speaking.

[alleyoop]

I tried digging into papers on circadian rythms and how they affect brain chemistry which could in turn affect CH, but most of what I read was just way over my head, medically speaking.

Check out "Rhythms of Life" by Russell Foster & Leon Kreitzman

http://www.amazon.com/Rhythms-Life-Biological-Clocks-Control/dp/0300105746

[Pixie-elf]

I was born with insomnia, we're pretty sure.

Doesn't the Hypothalamus control sleeping, too?

Mystina

[alleyoop]

Doesn't the Hypothalamus control sleeping, too?

From Rhythms of Life:

"A Viennese neuroligist...Baron Constantin von Economo was the first person to discover the vital part played by the hypothalamus in sleep.

"Bon Economo noted that damage to the front or anterior part of the hypothalamus caused insomnia, and suggested that this region contained a sleep-promoting area.  By contrast, damage to the rear part of the hypothalamus caused sleepiness, and so he suggested that this region promoted wakefulness."

In the current model for sleep/wake regulation..."The suprachiasmatic nuclei (SCN) regulate the various sleep structures of the brain either directly by neural or chemical outputs, or indirectly by the release of the pineal hormone melatonin.  Melatonin is high throughout the night, and when administered has been shown to increase the propensity for sleep in humans."

bobb

[MJ]

Interesting queries.

It seems that most clusterheads do have some sleep issues deficiencies. Not many of us suffer excessive sleeping I'd suspect.

For me I gravitate to the late, late hours several weeks in advance of and during a cluster period.

My thoughts and I might be wrong.

From what little I have read about this, it seems that excess serotonin creates periodic energy bursts or causes whatever neurons to fire within the brain.

This seems to cause not an overactive but a light stimulation in the related parts of the brain not the hypothalamus, that may just be a slave chemical creator if you will to other stimuli, causing wakefullness lessening melatonin maybe dopamine production and unchecked, the serotonin continues to grow in strength untill the hypo thing throws the balance completely out of wack. Soon we are in pain.

We could take many other pharmaceutical drugs to mask the effect but the whole time in cluster the serotonin stimuli keeps growing stronger just gets further and further off balance.

Some can equalize the balance by weight adding melatonin. I cant, the balance scale just gets equally heavier if that makes sense.

Instead

We take a little hallucinogenic equalizer to block the reception passages of serotonin and soon normality returns as  balance comes inline between the chemical production and we begin to get 3, 4 , 5, + hrs sleep.

I believe we can overbalance the other direction too wich is basically a high hallucinogenic experience wich causes my clusters to bounce around during busting like a superball.  Balance is the key.

If one can recognize what or where that balance is in themselves then I would feel confident in very low dose RC as a sleep "correction" method rather than using to induce sleep. May just be that that sleep correction keeps the clusters away. 

An interesting abstract on that;

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079612308009291

"Based on electrophysiological, neurochemical and neuropharmacological approaches, it is currently accepted that serotonin (5-HT) and dopamine (DA) function to promote waking (W) and to inhibit slow wave sleep (SWS) and/or rapid-eye-movement sleep (REMS). Serotonergic neurons of the dorsal raphe nucleus (DRN) fire at a steady rate during W, decrease their firing during SWS and virtually cease activity during REMS. On the other hand, DA cells in the ventral tegmental area (VTA) and the substantia nigra pars compacta (SNc) do not change their mean firing rate across the sleep–wake cycle. It has been proposed that DA cells in the midbrain show a change in temporal pattern rather than firing rate during the sleep–wake cycle. Available evidence tends to indicate that during W and REMS an increase of burst firing activity of DA neurons occurs together with an enhanced release of DA in the VTA, the nucleus accumbens and several forebrain structures. Recently, DA neurons were characterised in the ventral periaqueductal grey matter (VPAG) that express Fos protein during W. Lesioning of these cells resulted in an increase of SWS and REMS, which led to the proposal that VPAG DA neurons may play a role in the promotion of W. Systemic injection of full agonists at postsynaptic 5-HT1A (8-OH-DPAT, flesinoxan), 5-HT1B (CGS 12066B, CP-94,253), 5-HT2A/2C (DOI, DOM) and 5-HT3 (m-chlorophenylbiguanide) receptors increases W and reduces SWS and REMS. "

MJ

[tingeling]

Your thoughts make sense to me.

Are you to be found at the conference?