Low blood pressure

[CHfather]

Has anyone experienced complications from seeds related to low blood pressure?  "Normal" resting bp in this person is about 90/70, and I see that TommyD has a warning about vasoconstriction from ergot substances in one of his excellent posts. 

Advice??

Thank you!

[Jsmacks]

Is 90/70 not too low?

Don't quote me, but I believe the vasoconstriction from seeds and/or shrooms is nothing compared to coffee and nicotine.

Also, don't vasoconstrictors raise blood pressure?

[CHfather]

Sorry, J -- I should think clearer before posting.  Yes, vasoconstrictors raise blood pressure.  I was kind of freaked by TommyD's warning: "The various natural sources of LSA may contain other related substances in the ergot family, and some of these are not so friendly. Many have a severe vasoconstrictive effect - narrowing the blood vessels and reducing blood flow, sometimes dangerously - that can cause serious, even fatal medical consequences."  I jumped to overworrying and getting it wrong.  Thank you for correcting me.  That warning's still scary, though!

[Jsmacks]

Yes it is scary. However, many are taking these to treat CH. Psilo also has vasoconstricting properties, but I don't believe they are substantial enough to worry about.

I guess the question is whether or not LSA has more than Psilo?

I know for sure good ol imitrex will constrict your arteries WAY worse than Psilo.

Others here probably know a lot more about these effects. Hopefully they can help clear it up.

-Jordan

[CHfather]

Thank you for hanging with me, Jordan.

      >>I guess the question is whether or not LSA has more than Psilo?<<

Yes, I'd love to know about that.  It also seems that TommyD is maybe talking about extraneous stuff ("other related substances in the ergot family"), maybe the husks or something, which might lead me to think that carefully-extracted HBWR seeds would be better than crushed RC, husks and all.

      >>many are taking these to treat CH.<<  Yes. I love reading the success stories! But my daughter (about whom I'm writing) is starting from a different blood pressure baseline than most, and that's what makes me concerned about the "serious, even fatal medical consequences" that TommyD mentions.

Again -- thank you.  This whole board so often moves me to near tears, as I see people reaching out so generously to help others.

[alleyoop]

This is from erowid.org:

Hawaiian baby wood rose contains 0.04% LAA and Total Alkaloids % by weight is 0.30%

Major Alkaloid Content in the seeds of A. nervosa(Burm. f.) Bojer:

% of Total alkaloid % dry seed weight

Ergine 22.68 0.136

Isoergine 31.36 0.188

Ergometrine (aka ergonovine) 8.20 0.049

Lys. alpha-OH-ethylamide 5.79 0.035

IsoLys. 3.98 0.024

Taken from:

Ergoline Alkaloidal Constituents of Hawaiian Baby Wood Rose, _Argyreia

nervosa_ (Burm. f.) Bojer. Jew-Ming Chao and Ara H. Der Marderosian.

Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences 62(4):588-91. 1973.

Assuming 12seeds is 1.5g (as there is 8seeds in a gram), then when you eat 12seeds, you're ingesting some 0.75mg ergometrine.

Ergometrine (aka ergonovine) is a powerful ergot alkaloid causing vasoconstriction of blood vessels (excessive dose would lead to ergotism like symptoms: necrosis/gangrene of the extremities, meaning lips, fingers, ears, balls & thingy)

And you have to know that methyl-ergometrine aka methyl-ergonovine (which is an ergonovine derivative) is used by doctors to produce vasoconstriction (in case of uterus haemorrhage for instance) in doses ranging from as little as 0.125 to 0.3mg (0.3mg beeing considered a very potent dose, causing intense vasoconstriction, needless to say such a dose for no reason can be really dangerous)

Ergometrine is a bit less potent than methyl-ergometrine, but sub milligram doses (0.3-0.5mg) also have some real vasoconstrictive potential ...which isn't good for HBWR users because...

...just think that you're ingesting 0.75mg ergometrine when taking 12 HBWR seeds!

...and there are possibly a few other ergot alkaloids in the seeds which might add some more vasoconstrictive potential to the ergometrine effect.

This is the reason for:

- lips/fingers turning blue and tingling sensations in the extremities (another symptom is not feeling your periferal pulse, meaning your pulse in the extremities like fingertips pulse)

Yes I've found myself with completely blue lips some morning, after a night on 10 hbwr seeds.

- bad cramps in the legs: quite a few people (including a few one that I know personally) complained of some intense (very painful) cramp-like pain in the legs...this is also caused by the vasoconstricting effect of the ergometrine...needless to say that these people should NOT use HBWR.

Now, what's even more freaky is that if someone has some blood vessel anomaly in his brain which is latent and non-diagnosed yet (which is less uncommon that one may think), such as a small aneurysm/Ischemy in the brain, then a small dose of ergometrine could put this person in some serious life-threatening condition.

This is the reason why doctors tends not to give ergometrine to treat chronic migraine: even if ergometrine can be a very efficient medecine against migraine (in very small dose, 0.1mg at most), doctors prefer to avoid it as they know that there's still some risk for the patient to have some small "benin" ischemy in his brain that the ergometrine would turn into a crappity smacking dangerous aneurysm.

I think boys should also be concerned by vasoconstrictive effect on their testicles (balls): methyl-ergometrine is given to women in case of uterus haemorrhage (the vasoconstrictive effect stopping the haemorrhage by significantly reducing the circulation of blood in different part of the body including the uterus). As said ergometrine has a similar effect. The problem is that men's testicles are much more delicate than a uterus and excessive vasoconstriction could lead to sterility.

Symptoms of excessive vasoconstriction in testicles are the balls turning "brownish" and your thingy reduced to some ridiculous size (smaller than a child thingy).

Normally HBWR seeds should not cause big troubles for one's balls in normal doses (8-12seeds) but I have no idea of the consequences of regular use or heroic dosages such as 16-20seeds. I mean the ergometrine concentration in the seeds isn't big enough to lead to gangrene, but there is no way to know how harmful it can be to your reproductive system.

I guess that if there was serious risks with occasional use, we should now it by now as LSA seeds have a long history of human use, but we have no real info about regular/massive use consequences.

If there are any people on this forum who have been using HBWR seeds massively at some point of their life and then, later on, had a baby I would be happy to hear them...that would somewhat reassure me about heavy use of HBWR side effects...

Also important, as HBWR & morning glory & ololiuqui contain vasoconstrive ergot alkaloids, LSA containing seeds are not to be used if:

#lsa seeds makes you feel bad painful "cramps" in the legs

#Life long inherited blood diseases which can cause a variety of symptoms, including mental health problems (porphyrias)

#pregnancy (pregnant women)

# Decreased kidney function

# Decreased liver function

# pancreas troubles

# Decreased lungs function

# Disease involving the blood vessels

# anemia

# hyperthyroidism

# Elderly people

# Heart disease

# High blood pressure

#cardiovascular troubles (hypotension/hypertension troubles)

# Infection of the blood or body tissues with pus-forming or other pathogenic organisms (sepsis)

This list is something serious, no joke.

Also do not combine high dosages of LSA seeds with too much alcohol or depressants (serious risk of respiratory depression which is really dangerous)

PS: I made lots of researches before posting this text, and in order to give valuable info I asked my mother which is a gynaecologist (often using ergometrine) about risks, side effects, active doses and effect of excessive doses.

Also, if you ever found yourself involved into some serious vasoconstrictive effect from any stuff (fingers turning blue, balls turning brown), then taking a really hot bath might relieve it (this could be a good solution if you ever get some unbearable leg pain on lsa seeds)

The only thing I would add to this, is that the doses most use to treat CH, whether RC's (ololiuqui) or HWBW's are most likely safe.  But anyone dosing with LSA should always be aware of the symptoms of ergot poisoning.

Bob

[Jsmacks]

THANKS BOB! Amazing information. I often wondered about the specifics of LSA's constricting abilities. I had no idea where to look.

BLUE LIPS IN THE MORNING?

Do you still use HBWR for busting? Or did blue lips freak you out?

Again thanks for the info.

--Jordan

[Jsmacks]

and your thingy reduced to some ridiculous size (smaller than a child thingy).

I've noticed this on psilo. But I've also noticed it on other drugs as well when I used to use recreationally. Not the size of a "child thingy" though. Just.....smaller.  ;D

TMI?  Sorry. And for me, after using psilo, my wife still got pregnant. MY FIRST BABY!

[Jsmacks]

I was reading around on some shroom forum, and they are taking LSA by the buttload. 300-500 RC. Because of LSA's vasoconstriction, they recommend taking Niacin (vitamin b3), which is a vasodialator.

[alleyoop]

Do you still use HBWR for busting? Or did blue lips freak you out?

I no longer bust, but it has nothing to do with blue lips or any of the other symptoms.  I simply found something else (clomiphene citrate) that gave me my life back.  If you want to read more about clomiphene, go to the "Clusterbusters Files" and look under the thread, "stories and articles."  It's the third attachment to the third post.

[Bonkers]

Concerning ergometrine and small "thingys" in males: I'll bet I've been getting that stuff in my drinking water for most of my life! Damn!

[tingeling]

If you use a small amount of alcohol with the seeds, doesn`t that dilute the blood vessels, so they kind of work "against" each other?

I experienced a big difference, soaking the seeds with and without alchohol.

CHFather, i read your daughter was very slim and you was concerned about body weight and amount of seeds. I`m 155 cm and 45 kg. I been dosing with 50 RC seeds and mushrooms together. I did not have any bad effect. My boyfriend is 180 and 90 kg, he took less than me and had a much stronger experience. Wich he also had every time he tried any hallucinogenics.

But with the alcohol in the mix, my bloodvessels didn`t constrict near as much as without. I used one shotglass preparing four doses.

[Hipshot]

Hi there "little Bonkers"

hahahaha

Everything being relative...I guess blue balls aren't all that bad. :

We have been spiking your drinks. Is "it" inverted yet?

Way funny about a serious subject.

happy Thanksgiving

Dan