The legality of what we do. A discussion.

[MoxieGirl]

Hi,

This post is not meant as a response to any other posts going on at the moment about not busting because it is illegal. Rather, this post is a result of what those posts got me thinking about.

I totally agree with what others have said, to each their own. I neither condone or ridicule any other persons solution to cluster headaches, nor do I seek approval for my actions by others. I simply present here my experiences, and possibly open a topic of debate.

When I was very young, 8-9 years old, I spent a lot of time with my much older brother, who was a drug dealer. I smoked pot and was doing bongs before the age of 10. A year or so later, and my brother had to leave the State because someone had put a contract on his head. A few years later he did 2 years in jail for distributing illegal drugs.

I have always been very against the use of illegal drugs in my own life because of my early experiences. But don't get me wrong, I'm not against the use of said drugs, but as long as they are illegal, I wasn't prepared to partake.

So 3 years ago when I found out about this site, and what people were taking to stop clusters, my first reaction was, 'interesting, but not for me.' I decided then that only as a last resort would I consider such actions.

At about the same time I was searching for any answer, and had researched DBS (Deep Brain Stimuation), the D3 Regimen, and anything else I could find. I knew I would never qualify for DBS, although it looked very interesting.

About a year after discovering this group of people called ClusterBusters, I reached a point where I was considering suicide. I knew then that I needed to consider ALL possibilities.

So I started reading this site, eventually weening myself off of doctor prescribed medicines and becoming a fully fledged ClusterBuster.

For me, there were a number of things that made busting a solution in my life, once I got past the illegality of it. And trust me, that was a big hurdle for me to make.

I'm no longer dependent on doctors and their prescribed meds, with a whole host of side affects. This isn't to say busting is side affect free, but in my experience, they are a thousand times better than what I was taking before.

Without fail, all the meds doctors prescribed eventually wore off. Something I haven't experienced with busting.

I can grow my own medicine, and thus don't have to fork out handfulls of cash every month.

But most of all, I find busting infinitely more effective than man-made medicine. Plus it has virtually stopped my migraines, something I've had all my life.

Does it bug me that what I'm doing is illegal? Yes.  Yes it does, and quite a lot. But it spurs me on to change the law more than anything. Because this is a solution, and one that works.

I would be interested to know how other people over came the 'legal' issue regarding busting. Or did you? Was it a big concern, or no big deal?

Also, if you have any comments on the results of busting, and the impact it has had on your life compared to doctor prescribed meds, would love to hear about that too.

Lastly, if you are considering busting, but haven't yet, what is stopping you? NO, I'm not edging you on, or challenging your morals. But rather, asking you to stop and think.

MoxieGirl

[Pos1964]

Interesting discussion, it all depends on what you concern illegal.

Here in the Netherlands, shrooms are legal as long as the heads are off. However, it's considered a drug, so yes, we we're also hesitant using it. That may sound strange from someone who lives in a country where soft drugs are tolerated, to a certain point that is, I know

Although Jan is scheduled for the ONS surgery, he wanted to try the shrooms first, he's not eager to have surgery at all!

But what if your are suffering for 10+ years of this horrible condition, tried everything neurologist had prescribed and nothing worked for a longer period but you always will get back where you started because the medicine won't do their job anymore.

Off course we have discussed the surgery over and over again, should he do it, should he not. What are the side effects and are they worth it. We still don't know but with the previous cycle in mind, Jan feels he needs to try it. At least for now, once we have gone to his neurologist, he can always decide not to do it.

For those who doesn't suffer from CH, it is difficult to understand why he would take such an "experimental" surgery. I will not claim to know what he is feeling because I don't, but I've seen what CH is doing to those who suffer from it ( my brother in law is also suffering from it) so I understand and respect his decision.

And as I said in another threat, Jan will keep busting shrooms even after the surgery because it also helps him with depression.

So about using "illegal" drug, for us it also depends on where you live, I think.

Elly

[MoxieGirl]

Excellent points Elly. All about location, location, location.

I also wonder if where you live (or were brought up) has a bearing on your willingness to try such remedies as busting. You live in a place where soft drugs are tolerated, so it seems to me a short step from that to mushrooms with the heads.

My hope is that projects like Bol and what we are doing raises the understanding that good can come from mushrooms, and other such drugs, and that the laws need to be changed.

MG

[Pos1964]

I have been brought up in a place where using drugs was "normal", I've seen a lot of friends from my childhood start using hard drugs like Heroin and Cocaine.

They all started with a small dose of marijuana but soon began using all sorts of drugs like speed, Cocaine and smoking Heroin, to the point they we're actually shooting up.

It made me scared to use any substance at all, scared because I thought I would end up like them.

Although I live in a country where soft drugs are tolerated, it doesn't mean everybody uses it

So from that point of view it hasn't been a small step to use shrooms with the heads still on it. In fact, I have never used any drugs at all!

You can ask yourself why we (Jan and I) decided to use the shrooms at all.

First of all, we discussed this thoroughly and came to the conclusion it was worth the try.

We've asked some people about their experience with shrooms and if they were addictive. Everyone told us they're not, so that made it easier to take them.

Second, I don't see busting as a drug for recreational purpose but more like a "medicine" to give Jan some relief during the high cycles.

The fact that our health insurance covers all medication for CH, shows that it's not effective long term, otherwise we wouldn't have tried busting!

Off course, for us it's easy to get the shrooms, we can just walk into a smart-shop and buy them. I guess that also made the decision easier.

So in answer to your question, yes, I guess that the location where we've been brought up, lived or still live, does have some influence. On the other hand, seen from a very young age, just like you, what drugs can do to people, it was still (for us) a point of discussion.

Never the less, we're glad we started busting since the results are great, even for long term!

We also hope that studies like BOL and other "drug" related medicine will get legal worldwide! Imagine, a few century's ago, the now so called "illegal drugs" were the only "medicine" mankind knew until suddenly someone qualified them as "illegal"!

The Pharmaceutical industry needs to think more out of the box instead of just being narrow minded to other options!

[MoxieGirl]

"The Pharmaceutical industry needs to think more out of the box instead of just being narrow minded to other options!"

Well said. Although, I also wonder if they are driven by profits. Let's see, run of the mill pain killers that don't really work, but mean everyone has to keep taking them all the time or a pill they can take every 4-6 months and be totally pain free? One solution is good for the people, the other is good for the company.

There is a rule/law that I've heard about that goes along the lines of 'if it necessary it is legal'. Although working through the legal definition of 'necessary' is a mine field, and I'm not 100% sure how bona fide this concept is, or in which countries it applies (have just briefly looked it up).

But, if one COULD argue that nothing else worked, and they didn't qualify for DBS, OBS or other surgical procedures, could one argue that evidence, even circumstantial evidence, has shown mushrooms to help??

Or at the very least, it might help someone settle the matter in their own mind, if it didn't stand up in a court of law.

This is the approach I took, although didn't call it that. Busting was my last resort, after I tried everything else I reasonably could.

[Pos1964]

In my opinion it all comes down to the costs and profit.

I guess it would be hard for one individual to defend in a court of law that shrooms do work, circumstantial or not.

Over here it's already "customary" for cancer patients to use marijuana as a painkiller, as long as it's prescribed by a physician.

So we have the "legal" and "illegal" marijuana over here, although I really don't know the difference.

I think the fact that Cluster Headache is still quit unknown by many physicians, is also the reason there is so little research about it.

Still, I noticed that more and more doctors are getting more in to it. Patients that were first diagnosed with migraine are now getting the CH diagnose!

Until there's more knowledge about CH, I think sufferers have to cope with it in their own way, whatever that is per individual.

I wish there was a way to convince everyone about the positive effects of mushrooms!

This site is certainly helping in that way!

[MoxieGirl]

Yes, this site is a fantastic first start.

Still, if I had a super-power, it would be that I could touch someone and have them experience one of my headaches for 5 minutes. That would soon sway opinion. LOL

[weatherman]

Hi Moxie,

Personally, I find it mostly a moral issue.  We all have to bend the rules to get what we want sometimes.  Restricting oneself to a competely legal course of action will often be frustrating ...... like always driving the speed limit, never cheating on your taxes or littering.

The lawful practice of actions in any situation is often different for each society, each country, each state and even ones own family.  It's your ethical compass that must guide you in the decision to go against any particular law.  Knowing the punishment if you are caught is only the beginning.

It's interesting that my wife is one of the most "law abiding" citizens I have ever met.  Doing drugs has always been the evil topic of conversation with us and she is as "squeaky clean" in that department as they come.

When she found out that Psilocybin (Magic Mushrooms) were a potential source for CH relief, she was willing to set up a farm for me.  Schedule 1 Drug .... Hell with that!!  The risk is often justified by the need.  I can't imagine a larger need than finding comfort from the pain of CH.  Afterall, there aren't too many needs that go as far as suicide to attain the objective.

I'd dodge the draft, dump paint down a sewer, lead a mob to mayhem and pee in public to get a cure for CH.  My compass points to ending this pain for all.

weatherman 8-)

[Potter]

You can't do that and no are for other people.  Not me.

                       Potter

[MoxieGirl]

Well said weatherman.

I do believe, that if ever there was a reason to break the law, then CH, which doctors describe as the worst pain known to man, must surely be near the top of the list.

It is interesting how one's moral compass changes when it comes to the well being of oneself, or a loved one. My best friend sounds a lot like your partner. Very right/wrong, black/white, and law abiding to a fault. But when it came to a cure for my clusters, she's 100% behind whatever it takes.

[ThatHurtsMyHead]

I definitely agree on how one's moral compass changes based on need.  Afterall, morals are just someone elses interpretation of right and wrong we choose to adopt (or not).

My ex didn't believe in my treatment.  She made it clear regularly via body language and relationship stress she created, that she had rather see me rolling around on the floor with a K10 than support me taking a dose of mushrooms.  Like I said she's my ex...    It was just a component of a larger issue that screamed.....  We weren't personality matched.  Given the opportunity I'd do most anything in my power to help someone in pain.

Jeff

[MoxieGirl]

@Jeff,

Sounds like you've made some right (if not tough) decisions in your life. 1 with the ex, and 2 with sticking with shrooms. LOL

A friend and I were talking tonight about right and wrong, good people and bad people. She and I agree that we don't believe there are 'bad people' and/or 'good people'. There are just people.

Sometimes people do things that others perceive as bad, and sometimes we do things that others perceive as good.

Like many have mentioned, the legality of mushrooms is a man-made construct. One group of people's concept of right or wrong. They are not an evil product of some devil or something. They are just a plant.

And in our case, a plant with properties to cure our ailment.

People think nothing of trimming off a bit of aloe plant and rubbing it on a burn. What if the world decided that was illegal? Would aloe no longer be a viable solution for people with burns?

Granted, (as far as I know) people don't take recreational doses of aloe, but that isn't the aloe's fault. It is a plant, just like mushrooms are a plant (well, fungus (or fungi)- but let's not be technical).

This brings up another bug-bear of mine with society and what they consider moral. Alcohol is a drug. It is harvested from barley and/or grapes. More naturally growing plants. And yet alcohol is perfectly legal to consume for recreational purposes. Even to excess. In fact, drinking to excess if often celebrated. And yet, how much harm does alcohol do to society, and individuals? Compare that in countries where pot and/or shrooms are legal, and how much harm do they do?

Makes me think that societies moral compass isn't always the best one to go by.

I am perhaps getting too far off topic for this forum, and that is not my intention. Nor am I trying to raise political issues or battle the law. Just trying to look at the issue of taking mushrooms for clusters in light of the law.

MG

[Jessica-MTL]

I just saw this post, and had to give my 2 cents as I feel strongly about this subject.

First, to answer the initial question, using mushrooms was not at all a big deal for me. It is illegal to possess and consume them in Quebec (as is marijuana), but if you have small quantities, the worst that can happen is having them confiscated. I once had a cop knocking at my door while smoking weed because my neighbor had called the suicide hotline, and all he said was that he could smell it, and continued on his way. A lot of people in my family smoke weed, some with very respectable jobs. I also had taken shrooms recreationally as a teen, so I knew what I was getting into. I told my mom (who does not do any drugs whatsoever) how it could help, but that I wasn't sure I wanted to try because I was a new mother and didn't want drugs in my house. After reading some articles here, she found the mushrooms herself, paid for them too, and gave them to me. She said I just HAD to try it.

I also don't think anything that grows in nature can be that bad. Between alcohol, marijuana and shrooms, I believe the one that causes more damage is the only legal one. Not that smoking weed is good, but if it has to be illegal, alcohol should be as well.

[MoxieGirl]

Very well said Jessica. Couldn't agree more.

[Brew]

Sorry, I'm calling bullshit. Alcohol, when consumed in responsible quantities, has some very positive health benefits, both physical and mental.

Use of drugs and alcohol is one thing. Abuse of drugs and alcohol is quite another. And we all know what happens when societies attempt to legislate morality...

There are, on the one hand, the laws of man. On the other, there are the laws of - for lack of a better term - God. Following the latter generally keeps you out of trouble with the former. When they conflict, well, I know which path I choose.

It's actually quite simple.

[MoxieGirl]

I see what you're saying Brew.... But....

Alcohol is responsible for 1,000s of deaths a year, especially when mixed with driving. Same could be said for other drugs, especially when mixed with driving. But, in countries where pot is legal, there is a lot less drunk fueled violence. I think it is pretty accepted that alcohol stirs many people into violence, where as pot is a very calming type buzz. No, I'm not an expert on he subject, just my eperiences?

The thing is, society makes laws tat aren't always in he best interest of society or individuals.

IMHO

[Brew]

Alcohol is responsible for 1,000s of deaths a year,

No, alcohol isn't responsible. People are.

Just like guns aren't responsible for killing.

[MoxieGirl]

Correct, I could have worded that better. People's abuse of alcohol and disregard for safety is a cause of many deaths.  Yes?

But, alcohol does fuel violence. I know perfectly wonderful, clam people who turn into short tempered aggressive people when they drink.

It does frustrate me that such a culture is legal and encouraged when a life saving remedy like shrooms are illegal.

[Brew]

You mean like forks fuel obesity?

You're just not getting it, MG. Alcohol doesn't fuel anything. It just sits in the bottle or can, waiting to be consumed. By people. And the majority of them do it responsibly.

[bubblesup]

I first learned of this site and busting in 2006.  It took me four more years of misery and being in a psych ward to reject legal poor treatment and being accused of being a drug seeker.  My primary doctor told me he would rather see me use busting then the drugs he could offer.  Neurologist giving me caffeine pills and Er s telling me to go find a fix.  That was not there legally.  Finally I said f them and committed to these process.  When a law is unjust it is justified for man to break and his responsible to break the law. I so agree there is drug use and drug abuse. 

[domino]

I guess for me I dont really care and what I mean about this is that I am a libiterian by nature. I dont really care what my neighbor does on their own property or in their own home as long as it doesnt affect me or others. I have very strong opinions on why drugs are illegal to begin with. I feel it is all about control and money. I personally think the reason why certain drugs are illegal is because of the pharmaceutical companies. Did you know there are more americans on Rx drugs than ever. Lipitor is the #1 drug right now. In the 1800's pot was used for medicinal purposes but then a Rx company came up with asprin and then the whole illegal things began. What would happen if drugs were legal? What is the worse that would happen? Other countries wouldnt make $ off of us? We lost the war on drugs and it has been going on forever. We spend more $ on fighting this pretend war than we do making a difference. If someone is going to get "hooked" on coke they are going to get a hold of it one way or another anyway. I hear arguments that we would have millions of people in rehab. I dont think it would make a difference, what I do think would make a difference is educating people on the dangers of using drugs. Born a free person and wanting to partake or have pleasure shouldnt be regulated, but that is just my opinion. Would I want my kids doing coke or meth, heck no, not under my roof, would i ever want them to do it no i wouldnt. But they are born a free person and have the right to decide what they put into their bodies or not. So many states have passed medical pot laws, but when I see it being abused it really makes me wonder why legalize for just medical? I see far too many dui accidents killing families then I do pot related driving accidents with deaths.

Why would we regulate MJ and not booze? Maybe there is more money to be made with drugs being on the black market than booze? Who knows. But IMO it is not for big brother to tell me how to live. It really makes me laugh because in my opinion this plays into what New york has done. They say you cant have sodas of this size in new york, they take the choice out of your hands because they say they are doing it for your own good and they are helping you to make healthy choices but yet you can go and get an abortion on the premise that it is a pro choice thing and you have the right to do what you want with your body. Makes no sense - you are either pro choice and let people decide their own fate or you are not. If you truly are pro choice which means to let someone chose what to do with their body then why restrict sodas and drugs?

I love being independent - growing my own medication - no longer taking Rx drugs for treatment. When was the last time anyone cured something - Polio was it. We spend more money and time just trying to put patches on things rather than cure things. Sorry for the long rant lol....

But i have seen and know people where i live that get a pot card and they get it by telling a doc that they have a back issue. I wanted to see how easy it was once a few years ago. I went with the guy that has a so called back issue. I walked in paid 40 bucks and told the doc i had clusters, he said oh okay and wrote a Recommendation for me to be a user of medical MJ. Didnt want to see any proof or past doc paperwork or anything. This system is being abused and it doesnt make sense. I dont do MJ at all. I have tried it and done it on occasion but I do not use it. What was crazy was there must have been 40 people sitting in the waiting room to get their recommendation as well. For me something that grows after a rainy day in the forrest and I pick it and eat it is not a drug. Just because my government says it is doesnt mean to me that it is. They say a lot of things they want us to think is true but it isnt.

[1EYEcries]

What humors me is the fact that the federal government and the criminal drug dealers want the same thing. Illegal drugs. Why? because the criminals have a business to run and money to make. They both profit off of it. If a big dealer goes down, The price of what he was selling immediately goes up, and now the reward for another dealer/criminal becomes higher. There's more money to make.

Look at the medications derived from the amphetamines, opiates and cocaine. The most addictive and dangerous of the whole lot. Why not? people use them get addicted, want more, need more and in their quest of use, pick up some more medical problems to go back to the doctor with to get more meds, and the cycle continues.

The ones that are illegal, and arent used in western medicine, are the safest, most effective things we know on the planet. Mushrooms, Marijuana. And what do these substances do? expand the mind, make the user ask questions. Thats unacceptable! drink this alcohol, dumb ya down, and make you more susceptible to the brainwashing scheme, to keep control over you.

Still no one has a damn clue of what we are supposed to be doing. The meaning of life? It's certainly get educated get a job pay taxes, reproduce so your offspring continue the trend.

In god we trust is on our money, the same god that says thou shall not kill, but we pay that money to head over seas and bomb and kill our own kind.

Alcohol doesn't fuel anything

Oh, but it certainly did at one point... prohibition ring a bell?

America the beautiful? My ass it is.

"what they show and what they advertise -

seems to convey that we are now classified

grouped and disguised, as crazies or criminals in the authority's eyes"

[MoxieGirl]

Just one of the many reasons I moved out of America.

[domino]

If you ever watch an episode of cops and see the cops actually busting a person that has a joint on them and they take them to jail. Really take them to jail and make a criminal out of them for a joint. Insane - and the amount of resources and money it takes to book a person and to pay the cop - the public defender, the prosecutor to the judge to the clerk filing the case. I bet in california (or as I know refer to it as The Peoples Republic of Kalifornia) it costs about 100k to arrest someone with grass on them that doesnt have a medical card.

[ThatHurtsMyHead]

Domino, 1eye,

I'm definitely in agreement with your views.  It's hard to comprehend a government that "protects me" by preventing me from taking a natural substance that doesn't harm anyone and has many well documented medical uses (some having been used for thousands of years!).  Meanwhile that same premise of "protecting me" ends up putting billions of dollars in fewer and fewer peoples pockets.  From prisons, to lawyers, to technology, to government contracts, to every supporting industry of the "War on Drugs" machine.  It's an artifical money mover.  Nothing more... 

If someone want's a drug, they'll get it, or something simliar.  A sad thing I've seen first hand around here:  People are turning more and more to artificial "cooked" drugs to get high.  Some of these have serious physical and mental side effects.  If people were allowed easy access to the more benign mood altering substances I think there would be less going to alternative more dangerous drugs.  A kid in my old neighborhood literally fried his brain on one of the K2 drugs (Spice).  His wiring is now seriously out of whack...  If he had access to something like a beer or weed, then he'd likely not have ruined the rest of his life.  While I don't advocate kids should have open access to anything that they're unprepared to manage.  I also think sneaking a beer or hit of weed, is MUCH better than jumping right to Spice, C2 or similar alternative drugs.

Someone I work with is going through hell at the moment because his son that just turned 20 and is in college just got caught with a beer.  Apparently in VA they recently passed a law that a KID!! can get up to a year in prison for underage drinking.. WTF???  To me that makes no sense what so ever...  I'm baffled at the laws that are passed now.  So this kid now is at risk of having his life path ruined or seriously imparied because of something, I have no doubt EVERY SINGLE law maker did when they were underage.  Snuck a drink...  This KID is 20 and isn't deemed old enough by law to be responsible enough to drink, and yet he's old enough to go to jail???...  wow..