More new research!

[Dallas Denny]

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/revolutionizing-chronic-cluster-headache-treatment-the-science-behind-lobe-sciences-1.1889147

[Dallas Denny]

It's always exciting to read of these new developments, however, this particular piece raises a lot of questions for me!

Of the 5 major psychoactive substances in vitamin M, psilocin is the only one capable of crossing the blood-brain barrier and from every thing I've ever read, is very unstable after its conversion from psilocybin.

DD

[BoscoPiko]

Thanks for posting this. I am always interested in new developments. Truthfully I was not aware that psilocin converted to  psilocybin after breaching the blood brain- barrier. 

I do indeed need to research and learn much more! I suppose it was sad to read the focus of the study being partially geared toward children with severe anxiety... Since when did children suffer from anything other than how the next mud pie would turn out or if that rock you snuck into the middle of your snowball would inflict a proper sting on your brother's noggin effectively to worry about?   I was happy to read the part about the sub-hallucinogenic levels in this study but at the same time conflicted with what I have researched on this site to be effective. Either way I appreciate you posting this. Cheers! 

[Dallas Denny]

15 hours ago, BoscoPiko said:

Thanks for posting this. I am always interested in new developments. Truthfully I was not aware that psilocin converted to  psilocybin after breaching the blood brain- barrier. 

 

@BoscoPiko actually, the primary substance contained in dried vitamin M is psilocybin which is what's known as the prodrug of psilocin......this conversion is normally achieved in the gut as stomach acid breaks down the shrooms.....once converted, the psilocin has the ability to cross the blood-brain barrier and moves out of the stomach and into the blood stream.

I never took chemistry in school so I don't understand these processes well, but from what I've read, this conversion process is called dephosphorylation.....on the molecular level it amounts to removing one phosphor atom from the psilocybin molecule.

When you dose using the lemon-tek method this conversion is accomplished by mixing dried, powdered M with lemon juice...so when you drink the lemon-tek mixture after soaking for 20 minutes, the psilocin can immediately transfer out of the stomach and into the blood vessels.

As to the scope of the research, while the sub hallucinogenic doses may prove effective for some ailments, I believe clusterheads will require a larger dose to see any efficacy!

DD

 

 

[CHfather]

16 minutes ago, Dallas Denny said:

As to the scope of the research, while the sub hallucinogenic doses may prove effective for some ailments, I believe clusterheads will require a larger dose to see any efficacy!

Denny, is this because you just believe that a sub-hallucinogenic dose is just too little "medicine"?  I guess my question here is just clarifying important semantics.  To me, "sub-hallucinogenic" means that something might happen (or nothing might happen), but it's not a full-blown trip experience. So I'm asking whether you think a trip experience is essential, not for the trip itself but because that's the only way to get enough psilo?  Or do you think a sub-hallucinogenic dose, with some effects, just not "hallucinations," could be okay?  That's what Bob W is saying in the next paragraph, and Dr. Schindler actually uses the word "non-hallucinogenic" below to describe some successful busts.  

Here's Bob, from last year, saying that the the right dose is going to be sub-hallucinogenic: somewhere between no effects and a full-blown trip: "The small doses of psychedelics used to treat cluster headaches are usually enough to produce some felt effects, often described to me as a two-beer buzz.  But these are still far less noticeable than the effects of a recreational dose."  https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2022/04/18/small-doses-of-psychedelics-for-cluster-headaches/

This is Dr. Schindler [the person conducting the Yale research] reporting on the results of a 2015 CB survey of 496 people: "...infrequent and non-hallucinogenic doses were reported to be efficacious." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26595349/  (To me, non-hallucinogenic and sub-hallucinogenic both mean the same thing -- no "trip.")

More from Schindler (https://americanmigrainefoundation.org/resource-library/can-psilocybin-treat-cluster-headache/):    "Researchers also discovered that for those who found the psilocybin treatments effective, the degree of symptom and pain relief was not directly related to the strength or intensity of the psychedelic experience. This indicates that “the mechanism [of cluster headache] is probably not directly related to the psychedelic experience itself,” says Dr. Schindler. “That’s in contrast to most studies in psychiatry [involving psilocybin], where the bigger your experience is on the test day, the greater your improvement weeks and months down the line.”  

Way back in 2006, from one of the Sewell/Halpern/Pope publications: "...given the apparent efficacy of subhallucinogenic doses, these drugs might benefit cluster headache by a mechanism unrelated to their psychoactive effects."   https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Response-of-cluster-headache-to-psilocybin-and-LSD-Sewell-Halpern/e9aec20b22da4b258365f1e21d17ac3c62a48899

[spiny]

I agree Denny. And why this way and not BOL-148? 

We made it in as an "orphan" disease only because they are restricting it to Chronics. If all Clusterheads are included, we are at about 250k - 300k total the last time I checked and that exceeds the 'orphan disease' restrictions. It holds the line at 200k. 

And the Orphan status 'grants seven-year market exclusivity to drugs that treat rare diseases.' So, getting that status gives them extra marketing power too. 

Why for kids? Yes, WHY! Money I suppose. 

Most do not take a recreational dose, they take what they need and it is pretty individual at that. I wish them the best and the best for every CHer. NOT just Chronics! So will Episodics have to fight the hard fight to get this script? 

On another note, this may show them that a Chronic needs a LOT of medicine while Episodics can usually get by with less. It may bite them in the end. So, add in the over-anxious kids to keep your funding coming perhaps? IDK.

[Dallas Denny]

@CHfather.....in my opinion these terms are somewhat blurred.....the amounts we suggest are, in my mind, sub hallucinogenic but that doesn't mean there's not an effect....as someone who has experienced recreational doses as high as 7g, I can assure you that the effects from that amount are indeed hallucinogenic!!  In contrast,my typical busting dose is 1.5 to 2.2g which produces distorted open eye and closed eye visuals but the experience is far short of being truly hallucinogenic!!

Microdosing is considered to be sub perceptual and for that reason alone I don't believe that clusterheads will ever see that to have any significant efficacy.  

However, they may find that a sub perceptual dose by itself,  or coupled with therapy, is efficacious for other afflictions especially in children.

[CHfather]

@Dallas Denny, I agree with what you say here: "the amounts we suggest are, in my mind, sub hallucinogenic but that doesn't mean there's not an effect."  I was just confused because in your previous statement you wrote, "while the sub hallucinogenic doses may prove effective for some ailments, I believe clusterheads will require a larger dose."  

[BoscoPiko]

3 hours ago, Dallas Denny said:

@BoscoPiko actually, the primary substance contained in dried vitamin M is psilocybin which is what's known as the prodrug of psilocin......this conversion is normally achieved in the gut as stomach acid breaks down the shrooms.....once converted, the psilocin has the ability to cross the blood-brain barrier and moves out of the stomach and into the blood stream.

I never took chemistry in school so I don't understand these processes well, but from what I've read, this conversion process is called dephosphorylation.....on the molecular level it amounts to removing one phosphor atom from the psilocybin molecule.

When you dose using the lemon-tek method this conversion is accomplished by mixing dried, powdered M with lemon juice...so when you drink the lemon-tek mixture after soaking for 20 minutes, the psilocin can immediately transfer out of the stomach and into the blood vessels.

As to the scope of the research, while the sub hallucinogenic doses may prove effective for some ailments, I believe clusterheads will require a larger dose to see any efficacy!

DD

 

 

Thanks for breaking this down to me. Jeesh...this stuff is further above my head than I initially thought