please help with detox and busting

[tucker]

I am new to the board but not new to clusters, I have been suffering for 25 years the last 18 or 20 of them i have used imitrex injections to abort the attacks, up until 3 years ago when they would bust there would be periods of time up to 18 months of relief but the last 3 years they have lasted considerably longer, time before this 11 months and this time 7 months so far, I have lost my insurance and can not afford the injections no longer and would like to see if i can bust them, I have ordered the rc seeds and believe they will be in here Saturday or maybe Monday. I am detoxing from the imitrex now, it has been about 3 1/2 days now. I am a man and i am 60 years old and in good health other than the clusters. Any experience, strength and hope you can give me concerning the busting and detoxing would be great. I got some oxygen and a mouth piece attachment but the regulator will only go to 8

[spiny]

Tucker,

Welcome. You came to the BEST place.

You can use a plastic bag to get more O2. You put the tube in and tape around it for a seal. Then tape the mask to another hole. Seal the original opening. Let the bag fill up partially, like a good bit. Then breath from your mask. You will be drawing from the large bag, not the tubing, so you can get a higher flow that way. If you don't have tubing you can tape to the threads. I would not use a 'scented' one, but a tall kitchen bag would work. Just seal all the openings so you don't lose your O2. Beats 8LPM.

Breathing: Breath in deeply and exhale hard. I think of a beach ball. Expand your lungs all around. Exhale with force to make all the room you can for the O2. Hyperventilate (easy when ya hurt!). Once the pain is gone, continue with the O2 for the same amount of time or number of breaths it took to get rid of the beast. This is important, it helps prevent a return visit in short order. I find it the hardest part too. I don't hurt anymore, so I want to split.

Use coffee or Monster or another energy drink at the first sign of an attack to abort. Use the O2 at the if the drink doesn't kill it. I start the coffee and then hit the O2 while it makes. With energy drink, it's your choice of which to do first.

Do you take Melatonin at night? It helps a lot of people. Some take 6mg and others a lot more. I use 20-30mg at bedtime. 10mg and I wake up in an hour. Anyway, it helps with the nighttime hits.

Are you taking Verapamil or Lithium? You need to detox from those as well.

You might want to get a good O2 set up too. We can help there too. It is your best defense. 8-)

spiny

[spiny]

Tucker,

Someone else will be here soon to help you with your seed questions. Sorry I was not a help there. Just got you started on the basics and how to cope in between.

Hang in there!

[CHfather]

Tucker, here are some sources for regulators.  Most people, I think, would recommend that you get one that goes up to 25 lpm, but of course 15 might do it for you, as it does for many people.  Some of these places will overnight them (in my experience, eBay doesn't). Be sure that you get one that fits your tank: there are two different types of connections!

15 lpm: http://www.tinashomecare.com/oxygen_therapy_oxygen_regulators.htm?gclid=CMP24tOb...

25 lpm regulator (I think you have to call or email them to order):  http://www.lifegas.com/gas_devices_and_therapies/regulators%20and%20demand%20valves.asp

25 lpm regulator: http://www.madamedical.com/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=MM&Category_Code=MOR

Regular and higher-flow regulators: http://www.floteco2.com/htm/Products/Regulator/B-Regulators.htm

eBay : http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=medical+o...

If you're using a tube rather than a mask because you prefer that, then this might not be crucial for you, but a lot of people swear by the O2ptimask, which was designed for people with CH: http://www.clusterheadaches.com/khxc/

Lots of people understand your hesitation about trying something new, having had their hopes raised and then dashed many, many times.  But lots of people here have benefitted greatly from RC and would urge you to try it.  These files will give you the basic information:

Background: http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cb/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1290127865

Using RC: http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cb/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1290128974

"Detox": http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cb/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1290130731

Here's a report of some LSA users' experience (different kind of seed; same active ingredient): http://www.maps.org/research/sewell_2008_aha_lsa_poster.pdf

I think quite a few people here would also urge you to try the anti-inflammatory "vitamin D3" regimen that has helped a lot of folks: http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cb/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1314134804

Or, if you meet the criteria, the licorice root protocol: http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cb/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1298659068

As you get closer to taking the seeds, check back in.  People wiser than me will help you along that path.

[tucker]

Thank you for the information about the oxygen. Not taking lithium or verapamil. I do take simvastatin which is a generic for zocor for cholesterol and i also take diltiazem for blood pressure and valerian root, plus the supplements mentioned along with the D3 regimen, do you see any of them interfering with the seeds for busting?

[CHfather]

i'm no expert. diltiazem, like verapamil, is a calcium channel blocker. (wikipedia says, >>>Its pharmacological activity is somewhat similar to verapamil.<<<)  so, i think i would treat it like verap in terms of the D3 regimen. here's what batch has written about that: >>>in order to minimize a possible interaction with calcium that may limit verapamil effectiveness, separate the verapamil and calcium doses by at least 8 hours.  Again, discus this regimen with your PCP, neurologist, or cardiologist to work out an optimum dosing schedule.<<<  this is from this file: http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cb/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1314134804

i believe there is some consensus here that busting can be effective, though maybe not completely effective, while taking verapamil.  i assume the same would be true for diltiazem.  maybe others know more about this.

[tucker]

What about the oxygen that you can get at welding supply's is that the same thing that you get from the pharmacy? I have a regulator for that type bottle, I would just have to figure the flow out and that should not be a problem. Do you breathe in and out fast, as deep as you can and out as much as you can? I am also off the diltiazem also until i go through the bust. Thank you for your help, just knowing there is others out there who suffer with these monsters, i have felt alone and misunderstood for so long.

[spiny]

CHF is right. Diltiazem is also one of those 'let's try this since the Verap is a problem' that a Neuro will give you for CH as well. Like Verap, it lowers BP too. So in essence you were taking two meds that lower BP. I had to taper of off it 'cause you should not just stop taking either overnight.

If it is one you can't eliminate, it does function like Verap and would probably have the same effects. That doesn't mean you can't use alt. meds. if you still need it.

If you are in the market for a new O2 set-up, Lifegas is a good one. You need to order one with a 'barb' for the Optimask. The barb accepts the tubing from the mask. The DSS (?) outlet is for an on demand mask or other setup. They cost about 55.00 delivered.

The mask is about 28.00. Those guys know the necessity of getting it to you right away and ship immediately

The jury rigged setup will get you through till the other items arrive. Since you are in detox, you don't want to go without your O2 if it works. You do want to make sure that you get a high enough flow. 8-)

All the best.

[Whooligun]

I tried RC seeds for the first time a couple nights ago.  Had a great night's sleep, felt incredibly clear headed in the morning, but the monster came back.  My CHs are affected greatly by weather patterns though, and we've been having a few storms, so I will definitely be trying more seeds in the future.

I started with 50 seeds.  Put them in a glass of water.  Replaced all the floating seeds until they all sank.  Used a mortar and pestle to grind them into a slurry.  Added some water and let them sit for an hour.  Sucked back the slurry with a mango juice chaser, then went outside and shovelled the driveway for 45 minutes to get the blood pumping.  Came in, had a shower, then relaxed and felt my teeth floating a little bit.  I was a little happy, but saw nothing, was completely with it, and the teeth thing only lasted 10 minutes. 

I definitely felt the seeds working, so 50 for me is a good amount.  I guess if I was aiming to get a nice buzz, I'd shoot for 150-200, but I'm just trying to kill the monster.

I was nervous about the seeds, but they are pretty safe and easy.  If you are nervous, you can start with less than 50, but like I said, 50 was pretty tame for me.

Good luck, and I'm sure you will find something that works for you.  Lots of great advice and awesome people here to help.

[alleyoop]

i also [highlight]take diltiazem for blood pressure[/highlight] and valerian root, plus the supplements mentioned along with the D3 regimen, do you see any of them interfering with the seeds for busting?

tucker, if I'm reading this right, you are taking diltiazem to lower your blood pressure, and not off-label for CH. [highlight] If that is so, then I would not stop taking it without first talking to your GP.[/highlight]

CHf is right about the a calcium channel blocker being a contraindication with the D3 regimen.  Adding calcium with a calcium channel blocker will negate the effects of the blood pressure med. 

Because I was deficient in D3, my GP put me on high doses of D3 months ago.  I added calcium because of the recommendations of Batch on the whole D3 regimen.  When I brought up to my GP the fact that I take verapamil off-label for CH, he told me the same thing Batch suggested - to separate the doses by at least 8 hrs.  But this did not work with me, and as soon as I added the calcium, my CH immediately took a turn for the worse even though I was separating the doses.  It was a no-brainer for me - I stopped taking the calcium, and my CH calmed down.

What I'm trying to say is if you are taking diltiazem for blood pressure, do not stop without first talking to your doc.  And if you want to do the D3 , I would leave the calcium out as long as you are taking a calcium channel blocker.

As to the valerian root, I am assuming that you are taking it as a sedative to help with sleep.  It may be fine, I really don't know that much about it.  But, just a suggestion, you might want to swap melatonin for the valerian root.

I hope all this makes sense, as I sometimes have a hard time getting my point across.

[CHfather]

What about the oxygen that you can get at welding supply's is that the same thing that you get from the pharmacy? I have a regulator for that type bottle, I would just have to figure the flow out and that should not be a problem.

  Many people use welder's oxygen. As you say, since that regulator doesn't register LPM, you just have to open the flow until your bag fills quickly between inhalations.

I am also off the diltiazem also until i go through the bust.

  Others have cautioned you about this, and they're right. Keep in mind also that busting is usually a process that can take a while. Three or four busts, each five days apart, is pretty common.

[tucker]

I am going to speak to my doctor about getting on a blood pressure medicine that is not a calcium blocker. Thanks for all

[spiny]

Tucker,

Yes, you do want to breath hard at first. It helps focus your mind and alleviate the pain faster. I would do it for 15-20 breaths and then slow down to normal comfortable rate.

Also, staying on for the same amount of time it took to stop the CH will help prevent a return of the beast in an hour.

Melatonin rocks. It is cheap too. Really does help with night time hits.

See, by starting your own thread, you have received a lot of support!!!! 8-) 8-)

All the best and stay safe,

spiny

[tucker]

The big day is finally here, the seeds are crushed and soaking. I really did not know if i would be able to do the detox from imitrex or not, it was a horrifying thought but i have made it thanks to the information on 02 and support from board members. I will drink the concoction in a couple of hours and post updates. Thanks again 

[Bonkers]

Good luck! Fingers crossed. Keep us posted.

[CHfather]

nice going, tucker.  nice gumption.  here's hoping for a quick payoff.

[tucker]

I did the float test with the seeds and got the ones that sunk out and counted them and there was 54 so i then put them in a baggies and crushed them with a large spoon, then soaked them in a 1/2 cup of water for two hours, took care of any loose ends around the house and drank the solution. Very un-eventful  experience, i certainly would not call it getting high, i fell asleep and woke with the munchies, went back to sleep and slept through the night, i have a slight shadow this morning but feel great other wise. I will give a report this evening.

[CHfather]

:)

[tucker]

I have had two CH toady one of them at 11:00 am and the other at 2:00 pm and have been shadowing the rest of the day. Both attacks i was able to abort with 02    

[CHfather]

ginger tea and energy drinks help a lot of people with the shadows.

[tucker]

I was awoke 4 different times during the night with by the beast, 02 aborted each one of the attacks. I will try the seeds again after a five day break, I still remain optimistic, and the oxygen is wonderful. Any thoughts???

[tucker]

Will melatonin interfere with busting or D3 regimen?

[ThatHurtsMyHead]

Tucker,

While it's recommended to wait 5 days, it's not critical to wait. Waiting 2 to 3 days is fine if you're not doing well.  Also likely need to up the dose if the seeds are weak (which sounds like they may be).  Another reason not to wait the full 5 days, if your first dose was with weak seeds the wait period isn't as critical.

Have you started sourcing vitamin M?  I found seeds worked great for a year then stopped for some reason, but Vitamin M has worked great since.

PF Wishes,

Jeff

[spiny]

Tucker,

Seems that Melatonin is on the 'not sure' list.

Benadryl seems to be on the 'ok' list.

I take 20mg Melatonin. If I am getting hit 3-4 hard ones, I will take another 20mg several hours after the first dose.

Currently, I take 2 Benadryl at bedtime and have 2 Melatonin 10mg waiting for if I wake and need it.

Hopefully you are getting the proverbial 'slapbacks'. O2, caffeine and taurine, or coffee are good safe abortives.

All the best!

[CHfather]

While it's recommended to wait 5 days, it's not critical to wait. Waiting 2 to 3 days is fine if you're not doing well. Also likely need to up the dose if the seeds are weak (which sounds like they may be).Another reason not to wait the full 5 days, if your first dose was with weak seeds the wait period isn't as critical.

  Gosh, I really need help understanding this advice, Jeff.  At another thread, we just had a discussion about whether waiting four days might be okay, and the consensus was that taking seeds within 4 days might work, but it also might not work, and would then set you back considerably in your busting.  I also recently posted advice I received from a top LSA/CH researcher (whose name many people would recognize but I don't feel comfortable giving here), who wrote to me >>Generally five days between successive administrations seems to be necessary.<<

Here tucker used 54 viable seeds that, as I understand it, were fresh. He had very good results the first night.  It was his first bust, as I understand it, so slapbacks are predictable, and that could be what he had last night (plus, it's just his first bust).  Of course, it could be that his seeds were "weak," but 54 viable ones seems to me like enough to compensate for that, unless they were really, really weak. So far, he's managing okay with O2.

Your advice is always good, Jeff.  You have helped me and others a lot. I'm assuming that you have personally busted successfully waiting only two or three days between doses. If so, this seems like very important information . . . and I'm quite sure I've never read anything like it at this board.  To help me (and maybe others) get smarter and give the best possible advice, can you say more about a 2-3 day wait?