RC vs Vitamin M

[Joshua]

Ok, so I've been around for a while, and am poking my head in to this arena, finally..testing the waters.  I've read about both mushrooms and RC..and I have a question to which there are probably many answers...

1) why go to all the trouble to grow if RC seeds are a) so much easier to prepare/ingest?

2) are legal to purchase, etc?

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Are mushrooms proven (by virtue of overwhelming experience) to be much better and therefore worth the trouble?

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Do RC seeds actually work as well for chronics?

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Joshua

[ThatHurtsMyHead]

Joshua,

While I think the data says seeds work as good if not better than vitamin M.  Finding seeds that are not old, and have active chemicals is VERY difficult.  Fungus aka, Vitamin M has a very consistent chemical content and works consistently. 

Seeds not so consistent on the chemical content nor the related action of terminating our CH.

PFW,

Jeff

[Joshua]

Cool... thanks for that.  I'm also concerned that since I'm chronic and have spent the better part of 2 months trying to stabilize (now on lithium and high dose verap) that all that work will be undone by a bust attempt since I have to detox and if it doesn't work I'm looking at ramping up on drugs that take some time to kick in.

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tough decision, but I'm starting to think about it..

[blueballs]

I look at it like this...Seeds= big hammer. Mushrooms= much bigger hammer. The many posts I have read and my experience says chronics have better results with shrooms. Dont know many who grow seeds, easier to order from a seed supplier.

bb 8-)

[MoxieGirl]

Hi Joshua,

I was Chronic, getting 1-5 hits every 2-3 days for over a year. I reached a point where I was putting a date in my calendar to end it all. I had tried, not everything, but nearly everything, and was on a very high dose of Topiramate at the time (This was last Oct/November). I had told myself a couple years ago that busting would be a last resort, and I realised then I had reached that point.

It took me nearly two months of hell to get myself off of Topiramate, for I was dropping a dose every 3 days, and the depression and side effects were rough. During this time I bought a bunch of seeds, and a friend sent me 2 doses worth of mushrooms.

I was off the topiramate for a week when I started busting. A week apart I did 1 dose of mushrooms, 2 seeds, 1 mushroom then another 5 doses of seeds. 

I started having pain free gaps of 20 days and more, and when I did get hit, they were much more mild and shorter. When I went on Topiramate, it took me 3 months before the side affects settled down to where I could pretty much function as normal. Busting, zero side affects and the post-tramatic stress attacks I sffered after a cluster, gone. Completely gone.

Before busting, I would curl up in a ball and cry for 20 minutes after nearly every attack. I've done that maybe 3 or 4 times in the last year.

I haven't quite settled down into an episodic routine, I still get hit quite often. So I've taken to growing mushrooms, and have now taken 2 doses of my own crop.

Which is better? I'm sure it will vary person to person, like all drugs have different effects on different people. Seeds worked to an extent for me. Although I found them a pain to prepare. Sorting good and bad seeds, crushing, soaking for 2 hours. Yes, easy to get, but harder to prepare.

Mushrooms, I just chop up and brew into pepperment tea for 10-20 minutes. Strain and drink. Neither had ever made me sick, just a little sleepy and the colour green is VERY distict for a few hours.

But apart from all of that, I love the fact that I am growing my own medicine. I am taking my condition and its treatment into my own hands. From production, to medication, I am in charge. After years of taking whatever the doctor gave me, this is massively enpowering.

I hope that helps a little.

[Joshua]

MoxieGirl - what a great reply, I really appreciate it.  I think for me, I would start with seeds just given the time it takes for everything else.  I currently would have to taper off 900mg of lithium and 720mgs of verapamil. 

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I'm trying to coordinate this for a time that is "convenient" - and also be prepared for the worsening of the clusters before they get better.

[MoxieGirl]

Hi Joshua,

Yes, that sounds like a good plan. Not something to rush into. Coming off meds can really through your body into a spin.

I'm the type of person who goes to my doctor and says 'this is what I'm doing, you OK with that?' I was 1/3 of the way off my Topiramate when I told my GP I was dumping them for an illegal substance. LOL

But it was a rough couple of months, seriously depressed with some very dark thoughts. If I hadn't kept reminding myself it was all because of reducing the meds, and hadn't been so very experienced with depression, not sure I would have made it to be honest.

I am SO much happier now on seeds and shrooms. And I agree, I think seeds are a good, and easy way to test the waters, and shrooms are a nice long-term project.

Hang in there.

Renee

[CHfather]

Joshua, you don't mention oxygen, at least not in this thread.  Do you have it?  Makes the detoxing a whole lot easier (or less hard).

Many people here have busted with some success while still taking verapamil.  Your best bet is to be completely off it, but at some levels it doesn't seem to interfere with busting, or at least not completely. Maybe others will chime in about whether the level you're at with the verap should at least be reduced.  But here's a post from a while back from a God Member here (a true God member, not just someone like me who posts a lot) to someone who was on 960 mgs of verap:

>>You can probably bust successfully while still taking verap. I did, although I have always felt that I would have gotten even better results, had I been able to get off of the verap successfully. Give it a go.  What have you got to lose?  But make sure you have read the CB FAQ and know what you're doing.<<<

Lithium is tricky. As you probably have read in the files here, it interacts unpredictably with tryptamines, and it's probably best to be completely off it.  You can read the details here: http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cb/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1290130731

There are people here with chronic CH who have had more success with RC seeds than with mushrooms, so you are not necessarily going with an inferior busting agent if you decide to try RC.

The doggone thing about lithium is that people who get off it can sometimes -- not always -- experience strong rebound "headaches" (we prefer to call them attacks).  That's why it's primarily prescribed for people who are chronic.  I don't want to scare you off, but I think it's something you should be aware of.  I think most people here would tell you that it can be worth it if you can do it.  As M'Girl says, you need to talk with your doctor as you cut down on any med, maybe particularly lithium.

The hearts of many people here, including me, go out to you, and we wish you the best.

[Bejeeber]

What they said - and of course the O2 CHf mentions tends to be of critical importance.

Specifically high liter flow 100% O2, which we've seen chronic CH'ers here (including former chronics, thanks to busting) report as having been essential for aborting attacks during their detox period.

[ThatHurtsMyHead]

Concur with Jeebs, Moxie and Father.

If you don't have O2 and energy drinks they're a life saver while weaning off the pharmacutical cr@p.

I haven't had to put prescription drugs in my body in a LONG time now.  Hope you can get there too.  Busting has made such a difference in my well being. 

PFW,

Jeff

[blueballs]

Another thing you may want to consider is the combo treatment. Using shrooms one week and seeds the next. YMMV. If you dont have the desired effect with the seeds this may be an option.

bb

[Joshua]

Thanks all!  I *do* have oxygen.  3 M tanks right in my closet.  Working on getting a portable kit.  Currently they will only give me 15 lpm, which works for me.  Getting a higher flow regulator is on my list. 

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Going to talk to my neuro at some point in the next few weeks, I'm pretty sure knowing her I know what she's going to say about trying RC... but, at least I'll have informed her

.

This may not happen for a while, but I'm just  getting all my ducks in a row.

[spiny]

Joshua,

You might want to add Melatonin to your arsenal. It helps a lot of us. Seems that with active CH, the levels of Melatonin drop.

The path seems long and scary at the beginning. Of course, as you walk it gets shorter and less scary.

Good luck.

[MoxieGirl]

OH, there is one difference I've noticed between RC Seeds and Shrooms. Every time, without fail, I've taken seeds, I've woken in the middle of the night painfully constipated. Doesn't happened with Shrooms.

2 Weeks ago I took 1.4 grams of dried shrooms, and had bad slapbacks for a week.

Last week I took 1.6 grams, and haven't had a single cluster since.

Tonight I'm increasing the dose to about 1.8 grams.

Of course, it might not be dosage related at all.

Renée

[Joshua]

Does anyone have a link to a site that they've had good luck ordering RC Seeds on? 

[spiny]

I have seen iamshaman recommended by several people on the board.

On the Melatonin: Some say to stop it 5 days before dosing. But, it could help for the rest of the time you are stopping the meds.

All the best!

[Bejeeber]

Last week I took 1.6 grams, and haven't had a single cluster since.

Ooh! Now that's an encouraging news report.  [smiley=thumbup.gif]

[blueballs]

ethnobotanicals.com

viable non-treated rivea corymbosa.

bb

[ThatHurtsMyHead]

bb,

Don't see RC on their website?  I might have missed it.

PFW,

Jeff

[blueballs]

I stand corrected... http://www.maya-ethnobotanicals.com/product_browse.phtml/catid/subid/herbid_107  Maya ethnobotanicals oops! and anotherhttp://azarius.net/smartshop/psychedelics/lsa_seeds/ololiuhqui/ and http://www.salviasupply.com/our-products/rivea-corymbosa and http://www.shamansgarden.com/p-251-rivea-corymbosa-seeds-ololiuqui.aspx and finally http://www.shamanic-extracts.com/xcart/shamanic-ethnobotanicals/rivea-corymbosa/ take your pick it's all good

bb

[ThatHurtsMyHead]

bb,

There's definitely lots of places to buy RC, but most are old and ineffective.  I've bought from 5 or 6 vendors and all were too old / had no active chemicals.  I eventually found some HBWR that had active chemicals, and they were definitely effective in terminating a cycle a few years ago.  I gave up trying to find fresh RC.

Too bad there isn't a simple LSA test that can be run to gage the chemical content of seeds we receive

PFW,

Jeff

[spiny]

Ya can't grow flowers either. They would have been pretty.

[ThatHurtsMyHead]

On a side note a few years ago I did grow some RC and HBWR.  

I started about 8 RC plants from seeds.  After two years I had a monster of vines taking over everything.  By the end of the second year not even a hint of any flowers.  It was just growing and growing...  I decided to cut it down.  I'm guessing the soil doesn't have the correct makeup to stimulate flowering around here. 

Exact same thing from about 6 HBWR vines.  Nothing after two years, it got the axe.. (well pruning snips..

PFW,

Jeff

[spiny]

THMH

Where did you get the seeds from? I have tried to grow Mexican Christmas vine and nothing came up. 25 were planted! >

Course, after a few years the source might be forgotten.

thanks!

[ThatHurtsMyHead]

Spiny...  ROFL..  The same RC and HBWR seeds we order and grind up.   They also grow...     (ok enough sarcasm.

Even the ones that are too old to work for our CH treatment will grow for a few years after being harvested (long after the LSA has gone).  I started the seeds inside in a few paper dixie cups and potting soil.  Oh, I remember one note I found on the internet somewhere.  You HAVE to score the seed casing or they won't absorb water and grow.  I think 100% of those I started grew.

First score the seed casing with a file and put in a shot glass of water.  Let soak for 24 to 48 hours.  You'll see the ones that are absorbing water will swell up.  Those that aren't scored good enough will stay small.  Once they swell about 2X their normal size then transfer to the cups with potting soil.  They start growing slow, but once transplanted outside in 8 weeks or so, they take off like kudzu....

PFW,

Jeff