please help with detox and busting

[Purple]

I'm assuming that you have personally busted successfully waiting only two or three days between doses. 

Yes, that would be nice to have feedback from those who did try less than 5 days.

Personally, I had waited the 5 days between each bust, and then I had suggested 4 days to Mrsgrneydldy (sorry if I misspelled your nick) because she was in deep pain, a suggestion which had fired up CHfather (the thread is called New Here). We dicussed it in PM, me and him.

I agree here with CHfather that tucker's bust seems like a normal bust and that if 3-4 days isn't sufficient to "open the door back", it would be a setback in his busting.

I think there is no clear evidence 5 days is THE number, but it is what has been suggested it seems for a long time, including a personal contact, a professional in health, CHfather has.

Recreational use of shrooms or LSD: the usual saying on the street if I can say so is that if you don't wait long enough, you have to take more, like double the dose, but there is no garantee it will do the job.

In this file which is posted on CB's front page, it is theorized that each person has its own number of days before the door opens. http://www.clusterbusters.com/theory.html

Before taking this theory for granted, we'd need more data from those who did try shorter periods, that's what I think.

So after exchanging on the subject with CHfather and thinking about it, I think without any data showing shorter periods can work, it's safer to stick with the 5 days.

[Arde]

The hits after the first dose can be especially bad. The beast seems to come back with a vengeance. Fight back with the abortives, wait five days, and kick butt. It may take a while, but you'll get there and life will be beautiful again.

[Bejeeber]

Hey Tuck,

While you're prepping for that next RC dose, just as a back up plan I concur with Jeff that you might want to start looking into whether you could locate any mushrooms.

Seems that for some of us RC works best, then some of us find mushrooms or tabs do the trick more effectively than RC. Can be a bit of trial and error involved I'm afraid.

[alleyoop]

Some of you guys and gals do a great job of getting information out to newcomers, and it is much appreciated by all.  But there is no hard, fast rule when it comes to time between doses.  I am not trying to upstage anyone here.  It's just that there are a lot of variables to consider.   

While the thinking behind the 5 day recommendation is to avoid wasting more time by having to wait another 5 days after busting in less than 5, there are still a lot of extenuating circumstances to consider.  For example, most who make it to these boards are in pretty bad shape by the time they find their way here.  The dosing recommendations are admittedly on the low side for safety reasons.  So sometimes a person's first bust will be ineffective because of taking too light of a dose. 

Another variable to consider is when people are unable to bust except in certain time periods due to a lot of things including work.  This consideration is not nearly as critical when using seeds since the side effects are so negligible.  Yet these reasons and more have to be considered. 

Some have tried the SPUT and 'sip method's.  This almost flies in the face of conventional wisdom, yet some who did not respond well to conventional busting, have had good success with these methods. 

Someone mentioned doubling up on recreational doses to achieve the same effects.  I can tell you from personal experience that this works.  Back in the day (I won't say how many days ;D), I can remember taking LSD on a Friday night, and then doubling up the next night and was able to achieve pretty much the same results. 

So, all I'm saying is that there is no hard and fast rule that will apply to every situation.  They are all different, just as we are all different.

It all really depends on individual circumstances and I would also say metabolism, though there is no documented or conclusive evidence out there that I know of that would back this up.  What I can say anecdotally from about 7 years of reading clusterbuster posts, is that 5 days is the recommended time to wait between doses.  But that is not set in stone.  There are a number of people who have dosed in less time successfully, including me.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion, instead of making it worse. LOL

You're doing a good job guys and gals!! :)  Carry on...

[ThatHurtsMyHead]

Alleyoop, did a very good job explaining circumstances around dosing in less than 5 days.    There are lots of variables I believe.

My prior experience with Seeds when they worked for me, a few times I dosed as short a time as 3 days.  With the same dose I was able to scrape the surface of getting effects (which is what I try to do, so I know I'm getting enough of the chemicals to bust the CH, but not more than is necessary).  For LSA it's that 1mg threshold that needs to be broken for most success, per the doctor reviewed studies (but not everyone needs 1mg).  I don't have the link anymore but there's a poster PDF on this website that shows in the details that 100% of people that took over 1mg LSA had success.  That's pretty powerful information!   I always fast for 6+ hours before dosing.  Religously

Last year (June) I missed my maintenance dose and my CH came back with a vengance the seeds (LSA) quit working.  I tried mescaline only 2 days after seeds and had a shall we say fairly heavy experience (very unpleasant, but I'd do again if it stopped the CH).  While I had a trip, it didn't do anything for my CH.  My attacks didn't miss a beat.  2 days later an angel dropped some vitamin M on my doorstep.  Had a not so pleasant experience, but not as bad as mescaline.  The next day my CH was significantly better.  Going from memory I think I waited either 2 or 3 days and dosed again.  And again significantly more improvement.  I've since changed to only vitamin M for my preventative doses.

Hope this helps, 

PF Wishes,

Jeff

[alleyoop]

Oh yea, and one more thing about wait times between busting:

Most of us have found that trying to stretch the time between doses works really well, especially with chronics or while in mid-cycle.  You just have to listen to your head and try and dose at the right time.  Just don't wait so long that the CH is able to regain a solid foothold.  It takes a little trial and error, but eventually you'll get the hang of it.

Dosing -- it's an evolving thing. :-?

[CHfather]

Thanks for the information about your time between busts, Jeff.  Very interesting. I have read every post at this board since I joined (except the ones about growing shrooms), and I don't remember anyone, except maybe defectiv, saying they had consistently busted with success while waiting less than five days, and certainly not with waiting less than four days.

I don't have the link anymore but there's a poster PDF on this website that shows in the details that 100% of people that took over 1mg LSA had success.That's pretty powerful information!

I believe this is the poster you're referring to, Jeff:

http://www.maps.org/research/sewell_2008_aha_lsa_poster.pdf

Note that the data you cite are different from people who are chronic vs. people who are episodic (and the sample sizes are tiny). The person who created this poster, Dr. Sewell, once wrote to me saying that in his studies he had seen a tenfold difference in the LSA content of seeds.  And you can see from the poster that some people got a whole lot more than 1 mg; but there's no indication of how much HBWR they took.  So I don't think we can have any reliable idea how many RC or HBWR seeds will effectively create the required amount of LSA for a chronic or episodic person, which I think is why Bob Wold has said that while he thinks LSA is probably more effective against CH than psilo, the problem is with getting the right dosage of LSA.  All we know is that from experience most people who take 30, 35, or more seeds seem to have busting effects from that dosage, and many people who take less (as few as 10 or 20 in two cases I know of) also have effects.  Because we generally have the goal -- or at least keep in mind the goal -- of helping people minimize tripping, we don't recommend that people should start with 90 or 100 RC seeds: A lower dose has consistently done the job for the vast majority of people (or at least starting at a lower dose has started the job; it seems most people go up from their first dose once they realize they're not gonna trip). 

I think we can typically guess pretty well when a dose has worked, after the fact, by the effects: often a good night's sleep, maybe some short-term decrease in attacks or severity of attacks, and some post-dose hits. (In tucker's case, he took 54 viable (float-tested) seeds and had fairly typical post-dose reactions. That's why I consider that his seeds were okay and he took enough of them. Now that he knows the effects, he may decide to go higher.)

But as I'm reading all this (your post, Bob's, and others), I guess I'm wondering why it isn't just as good advice to say "An alternative to waiting five days is to wait three days and take a much bigger dose if you can handle it"?

I'm just trying to be a good "citizen scientist" here. I know that some of us (including me) don't particularly like to have our preconceptions and traditional ways of doing things challenged, but that's the only way that science actually advances. "Wait five days" is the safe advice, but maybe it's not the best or only advice?  Is that where this discussion is leading us?

[CHfather]

Bob/Alleyoop,

Do the same uncertainties or variables that apply to waiting five days between busts also apply to detoxing for five days before a bust -- or is there a different reason for that five-day detox than for the five-day wait?

[Bonkers]

Something else that I feel should be considered here is access to busting materials. For many, if not most, seeds are the only substance initially available and if they don't work, 'angel gifts' of stronger psychedelics become their only potential source. These, typically, provide a stop-gap just until such time that a personal mushroom garden begins producing or other long-term access has been found. These 'gifts' are in extremely short supply so it's vital that they not be wasted. 5 days is the shortest period of time after which almost anyone can be insured of finding the 'Doors of Perception' open. As long as busting materials are in short supply, any shorter period could prove wasteful.

Ron

[alleyoop]

Obviously, I failed in trying to clarify the wait time between busts. 

I try to simply read these posts and let you guys work out the details.  This time I felt that some were getting the wrong advice, so I felt the need to add my meager knowledge and experience to try and clarify. 

I have read every post in here too.  It's my job.  I have also read posts from the old Yahoo board where there was much more give and take than here.  But it was different.  It was a private board and we were all learning. 

This is not an exact science.  We are all feeling our way.  There are suggestions including the 5 day rule (recommendation), but there are always extenuating circumstances that need to be considered.  That's all I was trying to say.

You guys can cite Dr Sewell or anyone else.  I am not disputing anyone else's word.  I am simply trying to relate my experience and knowledge.  I am obviously not very good at that.  But I stand by what I've said, take it or leave it. 

I am sure that BobW can clarify all this.  Maybe he will.

Peace. 

[alleyoop]

Bob/Alleyoop,

Do the same uncertainties or variables that apply to waiting five days between busts also apply to detoxing for five days before a bust -- or is there a different reason for that five-day detox than for the five-day wait?

CHf, the short answer is Yes.  There are uncertainties that do apply, although not the same.  Again, you have to look at the meds you are detoxing from and how they will affect the bust.  For example: Using probably the two most prescribed drugs (off label) for CH, someone taking lithium should definitely wait 5 days because of the potential of a bad trip or worse.  Whereas, someone taking verapamil only can get by without a detox period.  But, I am not saying that verapamil does not interfere with busting.  I myself (among others), feel it limits the efficacy.

CHf, I know you are trying to help, but you just can't nail some of this stuff down to where one rule applies to every situation.

[Bonkers]

This is not an exact science.  We are all feeling our way.  There are suggestions including the 5 day rule (recommendation), but there are always extenuating circumstances that need to be considered.

Suggestion. Recommendation. Both words work better than 'rule' in these instances.

Thanks Alley.

[Purple]

Wooo!   [smiley=thumbsup.gif] I like this thread. This is great information and a very interesting work of gathering in one place tons of knowledge. It's a discussion elevating the debate, I find anyways. Excuse my English... not sure I'm finding all the right colours

Some have tried the SPUT and 'sip method's.

Uh? sorry, I'm French, what is SPUT and sip? ... mean microdosing?

As long as busting materials are in short supply, any shorter period could prove wasteful.

I think this is important. Thanks for pointing it out, Ron

"Wait five days" is the safe advice, but maybe it's not the best or only advice?Is that where this discussion is leading us? 

CHfather, that's what I think... As I told you in PM the other day, myself as a newcomer, I wanted to see all the opinions, so to make my own opinion having considered everyone's opinion

I think most clusterheads if not all are above average intelligence (yep I do claim that) and that they would rather get more than less info, and maybe also that newcomers to CB, as old timers I assume, have pretty much had it with stiff prescriptions and attitude from short minded and uninformed doctors, am I not right?

I think everyone's advice has a certain colour... mine will be purple  ;D ... I'm certain newcomers will appreciate we don't unify under one rule or even recommendation, but rather that everyone show their colour, There will be those who are more on the safe side, and those pushing it more towards the edge (the limit?), which is my case. Respect and variety... and after all, aren't doctors doing just that, trials and errors?

Peace :-)

[Purple]

Bob/Alleyoop,

Do the same uncertainties or variables that apply to waiting five days between busts also apply to detoxing for five days before a bust -- or is there a different reason for that five-day detox than for the five-day wait?

CHf, the short answer is Yes.  There are uncertainties that do apply, although not the same.  Again, you have to look at the meds you are detoxing from and how they will affect the bust.  For example: Using probably the two most prescribed drugs (off label) for CH, someone taking lithium should definitely wait 5 days because of the potential of a bad trip or worse.  Whereas, someone taking verapamil only can get by without a detox period.  But, I am not saying that verapamil does not interfere with busting.  I myself (among others), feel it limits the efficacy.

Today, my neuro gave me the results of my blood tests, and I still had some lithium in my blood (little, but still), that was eleven days after I took my last 300mg pill of lithium at the moment of the blood uhhh how do you say... au moment du prélèvement.

I think it's good to stress the 5 days period of detoxing if lithium is involved in order to avoid badtrips

[tucker]

Yesterday was a pain free day with very little shadowing, but again last night i was awoke with the beast on four different occasions all were aborted with oxygen and this morning i feel good again. with the oxygen doing the job it is I am waiting the 5 days to bust again. This time i will try 80 seeds.

Jeff was posting about the 1mg threshold for LSA needs to be broken in order for 100% success, i am assuming that is a weight measure? Does anyone know about how many seeds that is?

[ThatHurtsMyHead]

CHFather,

Completely agree with you.  NO ONE should take a large dose out of the gate.  After a light first dose a person should be able to gage the combination of their sensitivity to the substance and strength of their substance (They also gain confidence of how they'll react).  From that, a second dose can more accurately be sized.

Also completely agree with Bob's prior disscusion around Seeds and LSA content.  Please keep in mind it's not just if seeds float or sink that determines their LSA content.  MORE importantly it's their age.  LSA degrades significantly after 6 months.  From my prior experience with HBWR and RC seeds:  I've taken 20 HBWR seeds from one vendor with NO effects.  I've taken 4 seeds from another vendor that was quite intense. We have no way of determining how old the seeds we receive are.  The best way is a first light dose and resize the dose after that.  Once you receive a new batch of seeds you should ALWAYS start back with a light dose to reasses the chemical content and proper number of seeds for dosing with each batch.

On number of days between doses:

Completely agree one should wait 5 days if possible.  Once one gains experience (or is in a bad place) each individual could experiment with shortening their time period (sooo many factors can impact it - other medication, foods eaten, body chemistry, substance, strength of substance, time in cycle, etc etc).  BUT do still agree to wait the 5 days if possible, as that may negate some of the other factors that support a longer wait.

Jeff

[CHfather]

Jeff was posting about the 1mg threshold for LSA needs to be broken in order for 100% success, i am assuming that is a weight measure? Does anyone know about how many seeds that is? 

1 mg is a measure of the total LSA content.  Unfortunately, no one knows how many seeds it will take to reach that 1 mg level, because the LSA content of seeds varies so much.  I think someone once took a stab at some mg/seeds relationship, but I'd say there are too many variables to try to forecast.   However, 54 or 80 fresh, viable seeds are almost certain to get you there.  According to Sewell's poster that Jeff mentioned and I provided a link to, at least as I read it, the average LSA content in RC seeds is .8 mg per gram of seeds -- but, as he says there and shows there, the actual ratio varies so greatly that you can't rely on the average to mean anything in a particular case.  You could get a lot more or a lot less. Freshness and float-tested viability probably up your odds of being on the "more" side rather than the "less" side.

To comment briefly on the 1 mg thing: For people with episodic CH, the effectiveness threshold seemed to be getting at least .5 mg of LSA (from "average" seeds, this would be less than a gram of seeds).  As far as I can tell, the seeds of only three people who were chronic were tested, and those whose seeds tested at .5 mg and 1.0 mg were "treatment nonresponders."  I agree with Jeff that if you're chronic (which you seem like you might be from what you've said) it seems as though you'll need more LSA, and you probably ought to dose that way, but the data on which that conclusion is based are very skimpy.  I can recall only a couple of people who were "treatment nonresponders" here who used 50 or more seeds, and for the most part they were people who also were "non-responders" even as they went up to considerably higher numbers of seeds -- it seems LSA just didn't work for them.   As a person who likely has chronic or close-to-chronic CH, you have to expect that it will likely take several doses to lick your CH, but right now, from my perspective, it doesn't seem that seeds are not working for you.

[CHfather]

Jeff, thank you for this post!

Jerry

[ThatHurtsMyHead]

Jerry,

As yours!   It's the collective experimenting and sharing of knowledge that's helping not only ourselves (or daughters but others as well

Ideally if we could refine the seeds down to only the LSA we could effectively dose with a known amount. 

Issue: while we CAN refine it fairly well (even with common kitchen utensils and chemicals).  Measuring 1mg is nearly impossible.  Also, even with refining it, other contaminants are also extracted which make measuring extremely small amounts even more challenging.

PW Wishes Tucker!!

Jeff

[blueballs]

Use a high speed coffee grinder to bust up those seeds. It will make a fine powder out of them and they soak better.

bb

[blueballs]

Use a high speed coffee grinder to bust up those seeds. It will make a fine powder out of them and they soak better. You may also find you will have a better LSA content. However I have never actually measured it, but I felt it.

bb

i then put them in a baggies and crushed them with a large spoon,

[CHfather]

Use a high speed coffee grinder to bust up those seeds.

Okay, well, here I go again. I had learned, straight from the horse's mouth, that using a coffee grinder was a bad idea. Alleyoop posted on 8/29/10: >>The blender is out, as is the coffee grinder.  Heat is the enemy, and both of these appliances produce a lot of heat.<<

I'm happy, as always, to be corrected if this info is now outdated.  I understand that it's just a recommendation, not a rule -- and obviously the coffee grinder works for bb and others.  But if "better safe than sorry" is in play here also and you want to avoid heat just in case, a mortar and pestle is a good way to go.  Makes a nice powder with minimal effort, except to keep the seeds from flying out of the mortar.

[Arde]

I put RC seeds in a baggie and gently smash them with a BFH. My last dose was with MG seeds. They are a lot harder than RC seeds to break up. I went through two baggies and some of them weren't broken up very well.

The whole reason for using MG seeds over RC seeds was an experiment to determine if the Heavenly Blues were Ipomea Violacia or not. I heard years ago that some of the major seed companies changed the species of MG that they were selling because of the increasing popularity of recreational use. I kind of doubt if it's true. I know if I were selling a product, I sure wouldn't change it because I was selling so much of it.

I started off by washing them with warm water in case they had been treated, let them dry, and smashed them. I then placed them in a small jar with a lid and soaked them in naptha for about a day and a half. This was done in an attempt to remove the crap in the seeds that cause nausea. I know from long ago recreational use that they make your stomach want to come up about 20 minutes after ingesting. Long ago I used to just pop about 300+ seeds into my mouth and chew them up. My stomach did an excellent job of extracting.

I kept the naptha outside, didn't want it in the house just in case. After soaking I filtered it through a coffee filter and let dry over night and the next day. The naptha is so light it dries fairly quickly. By now there was absolutely no odor of naptha at all. I then did the normal hour and a half soak in water and drank it, sludge and all.

I used about 250 seeds so that I could determine for sure whether the seeds contained LSA or not. After all, that was the whole purpose of doing this, that and it was time for another dose anyway.

After swallowing the whole thing, sludge and all, I can tell you that the NK seeds that are on sale here at Lowes definitely contain LSA.

I experienced no nausea at all and just a very slight amount of stomach cramping. The test was a definite success.

[Purple]

I thought things were clarifying yesterday, and today I'm all confused. What does this poster say exactly? Reading it carefully got me all confused.

The poster says: (for chronics): All those who ingested 1 mg or less were treatment non-responders... If 1 gram of seeds gives 0.8 mg of LSA, then you need about 55 seeds to get 1 mg of LSA... so... 55 RC seeds isn't enough for a chronic, that's what this poster says, no?

Then if we're so unsure about the content in alkaloids of these seeds and that the floater test isn't enough to tell (who said that again?), chances are 55 seeds do not give 1mg of LSA.

Then also, the poster tells about some who took 2.8 mg of LSA, That would be about 130 seeds.

On my TrancePlants plastic bag, it says: 12,25 grams = 500 seeds.

I think this poster is more confusing than informative. I say we should rely more on our own experiences, it's probably worth more than this (I think confusing) poster showing a HBWR grinding in lemon juice, no extracting time, drying up, then soaking in hot water ... and the text telling about RC seeds, not HBWR. This doesn't seem to fit at all with the preparation suggested on CB.

I have read on shroomery.org many trippers grinding their MG seeds with a coffee grinder, but I read on CB many times not to use such a device because it heats up the seeds... Heat (and light) destroys the LSA, I'm pretty sure I read a quote from Albert Hoffman himself (on shroomery) warning about this and about the fact that LSA is very unstable.

And if I read the poster well, about 40% found LSA totally ineffective... I think CB's figures would show more like 20% ineffective if not less. 60% doesn't sound to me as the miracle cure.

Or am I reading all of this wrong?

I was saying yesterday that a variety of opinions is better, now I feel this is so confused we maybe better to agree on a standard procedure  :-/

[Purple]

After swallowing the whole thing, sludge and all, I can tell you that the NK seeds that are on sale here at Lowes definitely contain LSA.

I experienced no nausea at all and just a very slight amount of stomach cramping. The test was a definite success. 

What do you mean, Arde? did you experience tripping? And what is NK?