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pharmacology of BOL-148 (bromo-LSD) or LSD

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Hey guys

I'm a chemistry PhD student. I watched a documentary on CH and inspired by this I am in the process of designing a medicinal chemistry project with the eventual aim of discovering a compound to treat Cluster headaches.

I understand LSD and particularly the non- hallucinogenic Bromo-LSD (BOL-148) is an excellent candidate for treating CH (and is being developed by entheogencorp.com). What I can't find so far in my reading is how exactly this compound works- ie. which receptor interactions are critical in the treatment of CH and in particular, responsible for the incredible remission time from pain that we see with bromo-LSD (or LSD for that matter. I am starting to wonder if we know which receptor interactions are indeed important? This is bit of a worry as any compounds that would result from this research should be assayed against something before going into animals to determine very promising lead compounds...but what assays(???)). I've got a good idea in terms of chemistry what I want to do but I am still not sure what exactly I am looking for in the pharmacology side of things. I do understand 5-HT receptors are involved (and for LSD, the rather unselective nature in hitting these receptors is the reason why we get the rather nasty hallucinogenic "side effects")

To put the question in another way, if you had a chemist who is willing to design and synthesize a compound to hit receptors of your choosing in selective (or unselective) ways as an agonist, antagonist etc.  which receptors would you get the chemist to target and in what way for treating CH? Is there any publications you guys are aware of that deal with these questions? Would anyone know of a study with the Bromo-LSD compound where they discuss which specific receptors are being hit and in what way?

These questions might be bit elementary- forgive me, my training so far was entirely in and nothing but organic synthesis. (and IÂ’m still am doing reading to learn more about CH). Any publications/studies you guys would like to point out to me would also be very helpful.

Thanks guys.

ps- this was cross posted to the other CH forum (can't post the link to that thread here because I need minimum of two posts to post links  :-[)

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Well, I can tell you that I'm thrilled to see you here, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  Right now, you might only be able to imagine somewhat dimly what a breakthrough would mean for one person, let alone for tens and even hundreds of thousands of people with CH.

I believe that the person here who has thought the most about the chemistry of CH is probably Ricardo (his screen name).  Could be wrong.  As I recall, he has had some doubts about the centrality of the 5-HT receptors.  There was a time when we discussed some stuff related to this, particularly to the possible role of tumor necrosis factor, at this thread: http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cb/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1325136848

And Ricardo also pondered lisuride here: http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cb/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1327360561

These might not be doing Ricardo justice.  Or maybe some of it will be useful for you.

I'm a decent googler.  If I can start digging anything out for you, let me know.

Jerry

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CHfather - incredible help with those links, thanks a ton. I'll let you (and anyone else in the forum) know if I need to find something more specific after I go through the reading. (in this context could i ask you and others to give a small thought to what I wrote below?)

also- is Ricardo still around? sounds like a very knowledgeable person

my best plan of action right now is to order some LSD, 2-bromo LSD and have a pharmocologist do some reference assay's so I have something to compare to when novel compounds I have in mind are made...but that is re-inventing the wheel so to speak. if pharmacological data in the context of treating CH is known that would be very helpful... (these may not exist, I have been looking when I can for these)

re Lisuride: from wikipedia it says "It has a high affinity for the dopamine D2, D3 and D4 receptors, as well as serotonin 5-HT1A[1] and 5-HT2A/C receptors"

If i can find a sentence like this for 2-bromo LSD it would be incredible. We know which receptors LSD hits and what way already- and that it's (LSD is) effective for treating CH- we just need to get rid of the halluciginicity. If we have the same data for 2-bromo LSD simple process of elimination will tell us what binding figures and in what way receptors do indeed need to be hit for treating CH (and not inducing hallucination). This will help me because I already have a very good idea of what sort of chemical structure I want to make (not LSD) but only by running some sort of assay agaisnt something will i be able to justify saying "this compound especially seems like something we should find funding for animal and eventually human trials". ie. in research like this compounds need to first pass the petrish-dish test, and I am trying to learn what petrish-dish test (so to speak) would be most appropiate for CH. Hope that make sense..

everyone else; hold your horses, I hadn't done anything yet (!!!) (but very happy to be involved- CH sounds horrific and I am not sure why more research has not been done on this- especially with such excellent lead compounds like LSD being known. In this respect 2-bromo must be a very good step foward)

if anyone has more links stored up for CH mechanism/biology/how bromo-LSD/LSD works in treating CH side of things please share them with me here. Jorunal articles are no problems (just a citation would be fine)- my university has access to most journals

What keeps puzzling me is that the landmark 2-bromo paper in Cephalalgia (http://cep.sagepub.com/content/30/9/1140) is such a jump from a compound to human trials...surely this compound must of been assayed against something to determine the worthwhileness  in treating CH before going into humans. The process can't have been "oh 2-bromo is not hallucinogenic and was given to headache people already...let's also give it to CH patients and see what happens". (although that is what is implied) And yet I can't locate any other publications that must exist before 2-bromo making it into humans in context of CH...

Invitation for anyone else to ponder with me ... (sorry I think I've said the same thing in 4 different ways now. meanwhile I'll go through the reading above, thanks CHfather once again)

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Great questions Udin!  I would be glad to share any info I have on all this...No time right now, but I'll look around through my links and see what questions I can answer. 

Thanks for the interest, we really need more smart people willing to get involved in this research!

-Ricardo

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...my best plan of action right now is to order some LSD, 2-bromo LSD

Danged if that isn't the same best plan of action of a whole lot of headbangers here have! If only we could just hop on the phone and say "yeah gimme some of those Bromos, and toot sweet. Is there discounted shipping if I order in bulk?".  :D

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hey there Ricardo :)

bekeeber: http://www.lookchem.com/2-Bromo-D-Lysergic-Acid-Diethylamide/

research chemical suppliers do supply these things for research purposes I think...not sure how reliable these suppliers are though. worst comes to worst a total synthesis of the thing would be a solution...(but id rather not- tot syn of bromo lsd looks like it will take atleast a month). this is one of the reasons why i think there is merit in more research even if 2-bromo lsd makes it through clinical trials and gets fda approval etc. in chemistry point of view the molecule is rather complex and it looks like it will be expensive to manufacture

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(I'd very much caution against ordering research chemicals for personal non research, human use- 1. nobody knows what quality control there is. molecules like this gets made with very toxic, lethal reagents 2. depending where you are use of research chemicals in humans are against the law, 3. 2-bromo LSD hasn't really been through FDA yet- strictly speaking, we do not know yet how dangerous the stuff is to humans)

I'd trust the stuff I order from chem suppliers to put into a petrish dish and run assays against cell cultures (for instance. and only after running some tests to make sure it is what it says it is, eg NMR) but never ever, ever to ingest them. I mean, there are safer options avaliable now I hesitate to reccomend them because of the laws but ordering 2-bromo from a research chemical supplier should be a non-option for non-researchers and extremly extremly  dangerous. Can't stress that enough.  :-/

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(I'd very much caution against ordering research chemicals for personal non research, human use- 1. nobody knows what quality control there is. molecules like this gets made with very toxic, lethal reagents 2. depending where you are use of research chemicals in humans are against the law, 3. 2-bromo LSD hasn't really been through FDA yet- strictly speaking, we do not know yet how dangerous the stuff is to humans)

I'd trust the stuff I order from chem suppliers to put into a petrish dish and run assays against cell cultures (for instance. and only after running some tests to make sure it is what it says it is, eg NMR) but never ever, ever to ingest them. I mean, there are safer options avaliable now I hesitate to reccomend them because of the laws but ordering 2-bromo from a research chemical supplier should be a non-option for non-researchers and extremly extremly  dangerous. Can't stress that enough.  :-/

      Now that's some funny shit.

                 Potter

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Has anyone here tried ordering it and taking it?

   shahooty, every once in a while at this board someone reports on trying to order bol, or have it made for them.  the last person, whose screen name i do not remember (and who lived somewhere outside the US), was quite confident that s/he could purchase it.   no one has ever come back and reported that they got it, but i don't suppose that necessarily means they didn't.  one person, whose screen name i do remember but who hasn't posted here in quite some time, got a couple of shipments of stuff that was supposed to be bol, but which upon testing turned out not to be. this is reflected in ub's concerns about trying to get it on a "black market."

in general, as ub says, purchase of bol is restricted to researchers and others with authorization.  also, as ub says, some researchers have expressed concerns about possible long-term effects of bol, which have not been fully studied.

i assume that the "other options" that ub is talking about are the ones currently used by people at this board -- psilo, lsa, and lsd.

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What keeps puzzling me is that the landmark 2-bromo paper in Cephalalgia (http://cep.sagepub.com/content/30/9/1140) is such a jump from a compound to human trials...surely this compound must of been assayed against something to determine the worthwhilenessin treating CH before going into humans. The process can't have been "oh 2-bromo is not hallucinogenic and was given to headache people already...let's also give it to CH patients and see what happens". (although that is what is implied) And yet I can't locate any other publications that must exist before 2-bromo making it into humans in context of CH...

  ub, i think you'll find that what you describe here is pretty much what happened.  i don't know that for sure, but from all i've seen, that's what happened.  as a non-researcher, i wouldn't characterize it as negatively as you do here. the question was: does this stuff (which as you say has been used before) work?  as i recall, clusterbusters financed or partially financed that small open-label trial.

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CH-father. ah i see. the only negative angle I am coming from is that if that is the case bio assay's will have to be developed from scratch (ie. more work involved).

Potter- I am sure that is the case but what can I say- progress of science is slow and painful (and there is a serious lack of funding in fundamental science and I am feeling the brunt of it currently. In saying that, I am certian it is incomparable to the CH pain so accept my apologies). I'll be clear right now I can't promise anything- reason for me being here is to gain as much information about CH as possible.

-is there any posts by these scientists that dropped by you guys have handy by chance?

I'm quite serious about this though- I have a meeting with an academic today. I don't know what I want to do will have support academically and financially but in these things way to move foward is to try.

in this vain, any more publications/studies/information you guys want to throw at me?

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any more publications/studies/information you guys want to throw at me? 

  it's kind of out of date now, but the blog of dr. richard sewell (psychiatrist at yale med school) contained a number of reports about CH treatments, along with sewell's thoughts about them.  www.clusterattack.com    his name is richard andrew sewell, and if you google that in various forms, i think you'll find a bunch of things by him about CH and psychedelics.  he was involved with dr. halpern in the early work, which i assume you've seen (e.g., http://www.neurology.org/content/66/12/1920); they had a falling out, as i understand it, over some aspect of halpern's decision to patent bol for use with ch.  (maybe sewell falls into the category potter was describing. i can only say that he seems to have tried to keep up the fight, his early work made a big difference, and he was personally very generous with his time with me when i asked for his advice on several occasions.)

i'm going far afield now, but it's a curious thing to me that the so-called "anti-inflammatory vitamin d3 regimen" seems to have helped so many people with ch as an effective preventive that also sometimes quickly lessens or even in some cases eliminates CH pain.  i have wondered whether that regimen is somehow doing something with brain chemistry, as opposed to just creating a general anti-inflammatory effect in the overall system. (it doesn't help everyone, but there are lots of testimonials, at this site and particularly at clusterheadaches.com).  http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cb/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1314134804

also relatedly, i have wondered (though some people may already know the answer to this) why some substances that are prescribed for CH interfere with the effects of psychedelics, since (knowing absolutely nothing) i would assume that they do not block the brain receptors affected by psychedelics.  you can see a list of some of those meds here: http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cb/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1290130731

finally, there was one thoughtful fellow here who undertook to treat his CH with GABA supplements.  i know that the GABA mechanism is in the brain and some gaba-related things (such as gabapentin) sometimes help with CH.  another possible mechanism???

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his name is richard andrew sewell, and if you google that in various forms, i think you'll find a bunch of things by him about CH and psychedelics.  he was involved with dr. halpern in the early work, which i assume you've seen (e.g., http://www.neurology.org/content/66/12/1920); they had a falling out, as i understand it, over some aspect of halpern's decision to patent bol for use with ch.

The "falling out" came way before any decision to patent BOL. 

I think that speculation is best kept off of public boards.  It can sometimes stoke a fire that is best left to die out. 

JMHO,

BB

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I think that speculation is best kept off of public boards.It can sometimes stoke a fire that is best left to die out.

very good advice.  thank you. my apologies, especially since what i was saying wasn't really relevant anyway (i could link to the online source of my speculation, but that would just be adding to the potential fire).

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What I can't find so far in my reading is how exactly this compound works- ie. which receptor interactions are critical in the treatment of CH and in particular, responsible for the incredible remission time from pain that we see with bromo-LSD (or LSD for that matter.

From everything I have read, nobody knows...Truthfully, I don't think I've really even heard any good theories.

I do understand 5-HT receptors are involved (and for LSD, the rather unselective nature in hitting these receptors is the reason why we get the rather nasty hallucinogenic "side effects")

Most people think that the 5-HT receptors are involved, but it has been far from proven.  We know that all the substances that seem to work for long term busting hit these receptors, but DMT is one that doesn't fit the bill...As in, it hits all sorts of 5ht receptors, but I have yet to find one person that says they have gotten a long term bust from it.  (over and over again it is noted that it is however, a really great abortive)  I think this could be a starting point for your research--asking what does Psilocybin, LSD, and LSA containing seeds do that DMT does not?  Admittedly, it may not be that easy.  There is always the possibility that DMT IS working, but that something else cancels this benefit out.  I have always viewed with suspicion the fact that both Imitrex and DMT increase Human Growth Hormone because we have one cluster med (Somatostatin) that works by LOWERING human growth hormone...complicated indeed.

A couple links you might be able to get something out of--

Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome-

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0009019

And here's a video with David Nichol's that one of our members (OneEyeCries) posted  while back on how LSD works in the brain.  The biggest thing I got out of it was how much more there is to the LSD experience than just serotonin receptors

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZJtdZUy1LYE

This link may help as well.  You will probably know most of the info, but the references at the end make note of a few of the older Bol-148 studies.

http://researchlsd.blogspot.com/2009/12/bol-148.html

I'll keep looking for more info that might lead you in the right direction.    and keep the questions coming!  The more specific they are the more likely it is that I might be able to help!

-Ricardo

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thanks very much man. i think this will be very useful

let me digest all this now- I'll have specific questions afterwards I am sure

and thank you so much everyone- entire CH community (including everyone who corresponded privately). the amount and quality of information you guys supplied me is absolutly breathtaking

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