Verapamil use and M

[dainbread]

Hello, I have been a CH (the other board) member forever.

20 plus yrs of suffering. I am now 55 and on death row with these things. How could they get worse? Well let me just say they did. They switched sides for the 3 time in 20yrs. BUT this time NOTHING works and Im about to jump off a bridge.  They are so much more insane than EVER BEFORE. That's almost impossible when they have already been insane potent..  02 just postpones the agony, weirdest thing I tell ya, ITS COMING no matter what. Triptans always work but not anymore.

OK SO HERES THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION:  I am on 480 mgs of verapamil daily, it did knock these from 3 per day to only one LONG 2 hr session at 12:51 pm nightly.

CAN I BUST WHILE ON VERAPAMIL, are there any known issues with a drug interaction.  I can not get off the verapamil.  I wont make it--- SERIOUSLY... I read the effectiveness of the burst may be  hindered, that's OK I just don't want a bad interaction... I had a ridiculous time registering on here with that CODE, it took me hours to get on here.. Thank you in advance Dainbread...

[spiny]

Dainbread,

Many have busted successfully while on Verap. Several take it for high blood pressure so they are stuck with it. There is not an interaction, just blocking for some from my reading.

You might try the first bust at your normal dosage since it is giving you relief. Then, after a few days in case of slap backs, drop 60-120mg. Then, go from there. I have been on it and would not drop it all at once. Just my experience.

I am sure that one of the guys who is on it will respond when they see this thread.

All the best!

spiny

[dainbread]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH! 

[Bejeeber]

CAN I BUST WHILE ON VERAPAMIL

YES! (agreed with Spiny)

From what I've seen, a common scenario with busting whle on verap is the busting will be effective to a degree, then when the CH is tamed enough and you're off the verap, the busting can really get in there and do it's work 100%.

Sorry and horrified to hear of your high cycle straight from hell.

Increased intensity as the decades go by is one of the dirtiest tricks the beast has up his sleeve IMO, but when the O2 and triptans stop working that's just way past unspeakable - I can see exactly why you're inspired to bust, brain dead dainbread! Really hoping it'll bring some major relief.

(You're probably already well aware that unlike verap, triptans are major busting blockers, and tend to really spoil the party)

[spiny]

Anytime I can help db. We are all here to help. Just keep talking to us, ok???

They morph, as you know. The O2 delaying the hit just sucks. I know what you mean. Sometimes, even if you do it right and stay on the extra time, the shadow never leaves and the dragon still returns. If not in ten minutes, then five or fifteen. >

Jeebs is pretty cool. 8-)

all the best!

spiny

[dainbread]

The unfortunate side is I do take a Triptan every night before bed for the last 10yrs. 1/2 of a 40mg.  This prevents the dreaded rebound that is like a migraine for me, nausea and KIP 6 headache that will not go away. It does nothing anymore for the CH but will prevent the morning and all day migraine.  A guy can only take so much so I have to eat the pill.

I have tried getting off the Trips but the Relpax always wins.

With that said I will just have to try the M's and pray for the best. Good God I would love to someday be rid of all this. Im an experiment for the makers of Relpax- 10yrs and counting...

I have gone to juicing kale, ginger, apples, celery, spinach, lemon, romaine lettuce and drinking this pond scum 3 times a day for the last 3 months. I am about ready for a coffee enema!! 

Gross maybe- but I will do anything.

So far it has healed my acid reflux but has done nothing to help my head.

I watched the Netflix Movie FAT, SICK and Nearly Dead. That drove me to juicing. I am not fat- but I am sick and feel very dead.

Thank you folks so much for chiming in and helping me so quickly. Im excited to get started hopefully tomorrow when my M ship comes in. My heart hurts for all those that have to deal with this as well.

I watched both my parents die and it was quick as it should be.

Me and others are stuck in some sick Ground Hog Day movie of torture.

[Purple]

Hi dainbread and welcome to Clusterbusters.

I don't think you will find many supporters of these pills on this side of CH.com

The detox period prior to busting is usually and generally advised to all newcomers... I understand your situation though and I leave it to those who know about it about Verapamil...

But any triptan will certainly see most people here tell you you have no choice of detoxing from it first, and that for two reasons mainly: possibility of serotonin syndrome, and blocking effect.

Any triptan, busting agents included, will shut the door to more triptans for at least 5 days is what we usually advocate here. Correct me anyone if i'm wrong.

What I find puzzling is that you say you wouldn't consider quiting Relpax but earlier you said:

Triptans always work but not anymore.

I don't know if your dosage of Relpax (Eletriptan) is high or low...

I can't see me recommending that you bust while staying on Relpax, I think you shouldn't, but from what I see, it could be a possibility to try it, although I don't know when and how serotonin syndrom becomes a threat.

I'm certainly no expert but I happened to be reading recently on mechanisms of action of mainly LSD, and from what I see, Relpax hits mainly one of the serotonin receptor the 5HT1b, and that receptor is not specified as a receptor that LSD hits. It could be hitting it also, but it doesn't seem to be one of the main ones. Relpax seems to touch mainly one serotonin receptor, and also almost not touch the dopamine system whereas LSD does.

here are my referrences:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eletriptan#Mechanism_of_action

Eletriptan is a serotonin agonist. Specifically, it is a selective 5-hydroxytryptamine 1B/1D (5-HT1B) receptor agonist.

Eletriptan binds with high affinity to the 5-HT1B, 1D, 1F] receptors.

It has a modest affinity to the 5-HT[1A, 1E, 2B, 7] receptors.

And little to no affinity at the 5-HT[2A, 2C, 3, 4, 5A, 6] receptors.

Eletriptan has no significant affinity or pharmacological activity at adrenergic alpha1, alpha2, or beta; dopaminergic D1 or D2; muscarinic; or opioid receptors.

Interactions:

The drug has a relatively low potential for interactions. Notably, it is unlikely to interact to a relevant extent with beta blockers, tricyclic antidepressants and SSRI type antidepressants. Strong inhibitors of the liver enzyme CYP3A4, such as erythromycin and ketoconazole, significantly increase blood plasma concentrations and half life of eletriptan. Ergot alkaloids add to the drug's hypertensive effect.[4]

b]LSD[/b]

http://www.heffter.org/docs/hrireview/02/chap5.pdf

Other drugs, such as lysergic

acid diethylamide (LSD), bind to a variety of receptors

including the 5-HT2A/2C, 5-HT1A, 5-HT6, 5-HT7,

dopamine D1 and D2 and adrenergic receptors and have

aspects of behavior mediated through these multiple

receptors

Now this is for LSD. We might suspect psilocin and psilocibin hit the same receptors, but I didn't read yet on this (not that many studies)

Anyone on this?

ADDING this:

Wikipedia informs us that "Psilocybin is rapidly dephosphorylated in the body to psilocin, which is a partial agonist for several serotonergic receptors. Psilocin has a high affinity for the 5-HT2A serotonin receptor in the brain, where it mimics the effects of serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine, or 5-HT). Psilocin binds less tightly to other serotonergic receptors 5-HT1A, 5-HT1D, and 5-HT2C.[1] Serotonin receptor

so it seems that psilocin doesn't hit that 5HT1B receptor that Relpax hits.

One thing we do know though, is that MM and LSD and RC seeds work 8-) yep they do

You might want to try the mix ...  :-/ :-/ ... I don't know what else to say. I wouldn't. Most certainly, it won't help the busting agent to work properly, and maybe it could be a threat for serotonin syndrom, I don't know, really.

[apperception]

DrainBread,

Despite all of the similarities, each case seems to be unique. I have had success with 960mg of Verapamil and now down to 720. Constant shadows, but keeping full attacks at bay. Fortunately, I have high blood pressure and can handle very high dose verap. Not much help to offer you, but thought I would mention it.

Larry

[dainbread]

Thank you for sharing all that!

Correct the Relpax has had zero effect on this "new" type of CH that switched a few months back from my left to right.

I guess what Im saying is for 10+ yrs every time I try to get off the Relpax (like during times of remission)  I will wake with a migraine that will not go away until I take a half of a Relpax (20mg) of a 40mg tab. I have gone until say 8pm the following day and still have that migraine..  By then I always break down and take the stupid pill.

So what I do is before bed I take 20mg and will NOT wake with a migraine the next morning.  I will assume this is a "Rebound" headache? 

This is really a separate issue from my Nightly CH.  As mentioned I have tried for yrs to get off the Relpax, but it always wins. I honestly do not know how long I will suffer if I do not take the half before bed.

Now on another note the old CH was always aborted with a half and sometimes a whole 40mg tab. But I still always took half at bedtime. Then when I woke late that night say 1:45am with a CH I would eat another half and its gone.

I hope this makes sense. Thanks so Much.

[spiny]

db,

Are you aware that naturals will kill migraine too?????

So, what if you actually do detox from the Relpax, go natural and find your migraines are gone too? How would that be for a bonus????

[dainbread]

db,

Are you aware that naturals will kill migraine too?????

So, what if you actually do detox from the Relpax, go natural and find your migraines are gone too? How would that be for a bonus????

HUGE, the Relpax cost$$ us plenty if nothing else. I just need to try harder and suffer for however long it takes to get off them. Hate to act like a baby but when your suffering and something is on my shelf -Im grabbing it.

Whats the natural med?  I am game to try anything at this point.

[Bejeeber]

Whats the natural med?

I believe the reference to natural meds for migraine is in fact a reference to busting. 

From what I've seen here, based on reports from headbangers like yourself who have a history of both frequent migraines and CH, busting can be even MORE immediately effective at snuffing out migraines than it is for clusters - and it's pretty darn tootin' effective for clusters!

[dainbread]

I just woke from a well needed all day nap!   No CH last night thank god.  hey has anyone heard the term for some kind of MM called Texas Somin?  that's what I have found around here.

I have 3 PM's I need to get to in a few mins- thanks again everyone helping me out so fast!

[alleyoop]

DB,

I have zero personal experience with Relpax, but plenty with verapamil and imitrex.  If you would like to PM me, I would be happy to relate and help in any way that I can.

Bob (alleyoop)

[dainbread]

Well today as you all have  said GET OFF RELPAX!

I did NOT take my normal 20mg dose!! But Im up now at 5am with a nasty Migraine.  I will beat this today then be free of Relpax forever. I hate the stuff, my knees ache from it and I pee every 2 hrs at night from it.

Its going to be a LOOONG day. 

Most likely will not be on anymore today. Thank you all for helping rid my body of this crap..  5 days then off to MM land!

[MoxieGirl]

Hi dainbread,

I hope at the end of my post you'll get the feeling like you're not alone.

I have daily chronic headaches - usually having a headache 5 days out of 7 and my longest ever non-stop headache lasted 7 months. These headaches started at the same time as my clusters 6-1/2 years ago.

I have migraines, which run in my family, and I've had them my whole life. Sometimes I go years with only 1 or 2, but when the clusters started, my migraines ramped up to 40-60 a year. A bad migraine for me can last 5-7 days if the triptans don't work.

On top of all that, I have the distinguished cluster headaches. I've been chronic since they started Jan 2007. I typically have between 150 and 250+ attacks a year.

My clusters routinely switch sides, about about 60% are on my right side.

In 2011 I had over 40 migraines, and was getting up to 5 clusters a day every 2-3 days, and this had been going on for months before I turned to this site and started busting.

To abort my migraines, I would first reach for Migraleve (codeine and paracetamol), if that didn't work, Zomig, then Replax, and if after a few days none of that worked, then 6-9 shots of vodka straight up. The vodka so far has had a 100% success rate of stopping migraines with no hangover the next day. But it is my last resort.

Then, I found mushrooms. Since busting, my migraines are down to 3 or 4 a year, and are typically only 1-3 days.

On the very rare occasions I now take a triptan, I treat it as a bust, in that I wait a full 5 days before busting again.

Have you tried Indomethacin for the rebound headaches/migraines? I know that I was getting bad rebounds from all the Anadin I was taking, so switched to Indomethacin for a few months, which reduced my overall headaches quite a bit. Before that, my headaches would last all day or longer. Now they are typically less than 6 hours.

MG

[didgens]

hey moxie .. i see above you mentioned how the shrooms changed your migraines to only 3 or 4 a year. how did it change the CH's ?

thx

[didgens]

hey moxie .. i see above you mentioned how the shrooms changed your migraines to only 3 or 4 a year. how did it change the CH's ?

thx

[Purple]

5 days then off to MM land! 

[smiley=thumbsup.gif] might be a hard road but it gets somewhere at the end. We're all with you on this dainbread. I'm certain better days are ahead, and keep posting, support is here

[father2clusterhead]

I suffer from Chronic CH, have constant daily headaches too 24/7. Right now I am on Verapamil 680 Mg a day (not the slow release). If I want to bust and I read all the instructions on busting,  it is wise to build off the verapamil 5 days beforehand??

 Am I right? I am a young woman.  

[spiny]

Welcome!! Sorry that you have to be here of course.

 

It is wise to taper off the Verap and keep an eye on your blood pressure. It is likely that you can taper part way down and do your first bust while still on it. Some have busted successfully while still on 240 to 360mg.

 

I take it that you have CH along with daily headaches? What other meds are you taking now? Do you have O2? Have you tried an energy drink to abort a hit? There are lots of ways to make detox less miserable than it can be.

 

Glad that your are reading up on the process! And yes, the five day detox is important for many medications. Other medications can ruin a bust as well.

 

It might be a good idea to start your own thread.

 

ATB

 

spiny

[father2clusterhead]

Thanks for your advice!

 

Yes, I have O2. Use it in large quantities these days. No other medicines besides verapamil.

 

I am worried to get off the Verapamil as I am afraid the cluster will hit me hard. Besides Doctors told me to taper off the vera in a very slow modus so 5 days is not enough for me and a longer period to taper off: I am too afraid cluster will hit me hard.  

 

I Have CCH along with 24/7 headache which is all related, my doctors say. I tried Energy drinks in the past but with not much result.  

[jkan]

Hey Guys/Gals,

 

I also suffer from chronic CH, I am currently on Verapamil 720mg a day, I have tried to taper off the Verapamil with no luck. I can't stop taking them!!. I have had CH for about 10 years now. I have busted using shrooms few years back when i was taking a lower dose of verapamil. I tried to bust three times now by making a shroom tea with 1g of shrooms with no luck.

 

Can/should I still try to bust while on 720mg Verapamil??? Am i taking a high enough dose of shrooms??

 

When i tried to bust i was off zomaigs for at least 5 days.

 

thanks!! 

[jkan]

@father2clusterhead

 

I have this same problem. if i try to taper off the verapamil i get hit hard and more frequent.

[spiny]

I am fairly sure that 720mg would block a bust. The highest daily dose while busting was 360 that I am aware of. It is a blocker so far as we know at high doses. Yes, a taper will take more than 5 days. That is where your O2 and energy drinks come in - they help you get thru the tough times while reducing your verap. intake. It is no cakewalk but the benefits can be remarkable. Melatonin at 10-20mgs can help with nocturnal hits. So can sleeping in a recliner.