Afraid to Bust

[Art]

Hi, I am new to this board, so I hope you will forgive me if I am posting in the wrong place or raising an indiscreet subject.  I have been getting cluster headaches for 14 years and have tried all the conventional medical measures to no avail.  I read about busting maybe six years ago and never pursued the idea mainly because of the legal concerns (I live in Virginia, US).  I can see from the posts and other resources on this site that it is working for a lot of people, and would love to give busting a try, but I am wondering how so many are dealing with the legal risks.  Every time I have another unbearable attack, I think about trying busting and then visions of search warrants, handcuffs and courtrooms start dancing in my head.  Am I just paranoid?  Or is it that folks are so desperate for relief that they decide the risks are worth taking?  (Which is just about my state of mind at the moment.)  Are there any resources available here or elsewhere on the incidence of prosecutions of individuals buying spores, seeds, growing kits, etc. over the internet?

If this is not a suitable subject for a public posting, I'd be happy to communicate offline.

[Tony Only]

Hi Art and welcome, you are in the right place with the right subject. I will let the US folks take this one. Very nice to have you here

[CHfather]

Are there any resources available here or elsewhere on the incidence of prosecutions of individuals buying spores, seeds, growing kits, etc. over the internet?

Art, let's start here. It's legal to buy and possess spores in most states.  It's legal to buy and possess rivea corymbosa seeds (from which one might make LSA) in all states (except maybe one or two).  No crime there (and in general, suppliers won't ship to places where it's not legal). 

So, let's say you decided to try seeds.  You can order them, and keep them as long as you want, completely legally. It takes about two hours, in the privacy of your own kitchen, to very simply prepare the LSA (grind seeds; add water) and then drink it.  The point when you do that is the only time you are doing something unlawful.  So one might ask oneself what the likelihood of being apprehended is.  Seems like you'd practically have to invite a police officer to watch you do it.  Part of the challenge there would be convincing the officer that it would be worth his or her time, since in general, cops and prosecutors have real crimes, with unsympathetic perpetrators, to deal with, which makes them pretty uninterested in people who are doing something for their own use, to deal with terrible pain.

Am I encouraging you to do this? Of course not! For all I know, that might be some kind of crime. Just saying . . .

have tried all the conventional medical measures to no avail.

Does this include oxygen?  Used properly, it's a great abortive for a very, very large percentage of people with CH.  And what about some of the non-pharm approaches that have helped a lot of folks: D3 regimen; licorice root; melatonin; energy drinks . . . kudzu, even? 

Is your CH episodic or chronic?

[Bejeeber]

[Edit: CHfather snuck his post in while I was still composing mine. Good thing, because he knows his stuff and lays it out clearly. ]

Hi Art.

Just a couple off the cuff opinions from me, and I too will be interested in what others have to say:

1) RC (Rivea Corymbosa) seeds are entirely legal to order and possess in the US, so those could be a good place to start for busting. The only way I can think of to be busted for those would be if you were to flag down a cop and say "hey I know you've never heard of these RC seeds, but they are in fact technically illegal to ingest, and look I'm gobbling them down RIGHT NOW ooh yum yum YUM!". 

2) I haven't heard of anyone being arrested in connection with busting for CH. The couple of police officers I know who are CH'ers have opined that law enforcement has much bigger fish to go after and aren't at all likely to be stalking people just trying to deal with what is probably the most excruciatingly painful condition known.

[Dallas Denny]

Welcome to the community Art, sorry you have the need to be here!

I've been here for 4+ years and I'm not aware of anyone having a brush with the law....it is illegal so without a doubt there are risks....most folks are out of options when they get here so I think for most, the chance of relief outweigh the risks. 

Read and ask questions...again, welcome!

DD

[Art]

Thanks for the replies!  This is a fantastic board, I already have learned a great deal and I thought (wrongly, it now appears) that I knew a lot before I got here.

CHfather, my CH is chronic (it started as episodic but morphed to chronic about six years ago).  You asked about oxygen and other things I have tried.  I DO use oxygen and it is a great help, although most times it seems to postpone rather than abort the attacks.  Still, I hate to be without it, e.g., when traveling.  I also use Sumatriptan injections, which work very well.  The problem is that you can take only so much and regularly have days with eight or more atacks.  In addition, I have been reading that there is evidence that this drug may be causing new attacks, and that it might be part of the reason my CH morphed to chronic.  One of my numerous self-assignments is to search this site on that subject.

As far as non-pharm approaches, for me melatonin, coffee, energy drinks and kudzu have been ineffective.  I am currently doing the D3 regimen (just started; too early to tell).  I am looking at licorice root.  One concern in that case is that my heavy use of Sumatriptan may be a contraindication.  Any thoughts about that?

[Tony Only]

I believe I turned chronic mostly because of triptans but steroids were doing their part as well. For me it was a frightening thought to go without triptans to be able to bust (5 days at least). And it was hard time but my attacks became easier without triptans, slowly but steadily. I had been using them way over the max amounts since I got 4-8 attacks every day.

Nowadays I would not use triptan no matter what. For me, a single triptan creates a 5 day time frame where additional attacks are more than probable. And yes, one has to be off them prior to busting and they will also need to be dropped before the liquorice root.  It is just hard to imagine the "better life" when you're having it rough and to think the meds you're using might be part of the problem.

But I really like where you are going. Vitamin D, Liquorice root and some form of busting; those are the main ingredients that kept me PF for almost 4 years after busting myself PF from chronic state. All the best to you on your journey

[CHfather]

Art, it's very nice to have someone who has done his homework!  I hope we turn out to be helpful to you.

Just three thoughts, really: (1) Many people find that if they stay on the O2 after their attack has dissipated (stay on maybe another 5-7 minutes or so, as a general rule), it seems to hold off subsequent hits; (2) Do you know about this method for extending Imitrex: https://www.clusterheadaches.com/cb/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1361807077?  It seems that it's also possible to get Imitrex in vials and use your own syringes to get the (smaller) dosage you want; and (3) you probably know this already, but regarding traveling you can get O2 in cylinders you can easily transport in your car, and it's my understanding that some providers can help you arrange for O2 in new locations if you're traveling by plane. 

I'm sorry that I don't know specifically about the interaction of sumatriptan and licorice root.  I guess maybe you need to consider Tony's perspective on the triptans in general (since you'd have to "detox" from them anyway if you decided to try busting). 

[Tony Only]

You can even stay longer on O2 after last sign of pain if that seems to work better for you. Sometimes 10 minutes and more helped me a lot in a form of hit not returning.

Although Les never covered it too much, I think the same mechanisms of action via which triptans block busting also apply to block or interfere the Liquorice Root's effects. I have heard of nothing but trouble and/or failure in Herbal Protocol if attempted while on triptans. For everyone, don't do it, respect this herb

[MoxieGirl]

Hi Art,

Welcome to the board, and sorry you are here.

I was hesitant to try busting for a long time too. I had heard about this board a good 18 months or so before joining and really looking into it. I would say it was a 50/50 between the illegal aspect of it and the fact that I'd be taking hallucinogenic drugs. You see, I have a brother who used to be a dealer. I smoked pot pretty regularly when I was about 10 years old with him, and was offered coke when I was 14 or so. Thankfully, I turned down the offer. Not long after, my brother did 2 years in prison for dealing.

Although I have nothing against such drugs philosophically, I didn't want to be like my brother.

So for me, busting was always a last resort. Like you, I'm chronic. I started out as being chronic 7 years ago. 2010 was a very bad year. Was getting up to 5 attacks a day ever 2-3 days, plus migraines, plus daily chronic headaches. It wasn't my worst year, but it was a bad year.

It's also worth noting that I had been on Topiramate for 18 months by Nov 2010. I was beyond the highest recommended dose, and it was doing nothing for me. So I told my doctor I was coming off it and was going to try magic mushrooms.

I've never looked back. The improvement, although not complete, was amazing! The 20-30 minute PTSD attack I would get after every cluster was gone after the first bust. Migraines went from 40+ a year to a handful. And I've had Pain Free days of up to 23 days.

I spoke to a friend of mine about it who is a police officer (constable here in the UK). Like already mentioned, she said the police have bigger crimes to fight. As long as I'm not dealing, or announcing it to world, I will more than likely stay off the police's radar.

Take care,

MG

[ClusterHeadSurvivor]

I don't think youhave tried "ALL" forms of medical uses for CH.

Have you had brain surgery?

If brain surgery scares you then your in the right place.

I am not a BUSTER but I am 100% a supporter of Busting and this is the place to get knowledge, help and understanding.

I hope you find relief here. Great group of people

[Art]

You folks are terrific and I am very grateful for the input.

A special thanks to CHfather for the trex-extender tip.  I get trex in 4 mg auto-injector kits (my PA had to move heaven and earth to get it approved by my insurer).  This allows me three shots in a day.  The extender tip would allow me to double that, and I am definitely going to give this a try.  But going forward, I am hoping I can wean myself off trex to give busting and licorice extract a try.

I have seen multiple references on this board to staying on the O2 for some time after the pain dissipates, and I am going to try that.  And I didn't know that some O2 suppliers can make it available at travel destinations.  I will look into that also.

Moxy Girl, I really appreciate your perspective on the legal stuff, and your mention of Topiramate brings back "special" memories for me.  I, too, was on Topiramate for a while many years ago, and not only did it do nothing to improve my CH, but it gave me kidney stones.  I had several bouts of stones, including two that occurred after I stopped the Topiramate.  I can remember several times when I got pretty severe CH hits while I waiting for a ride to the ER because of the stones.  When I think back on it, I have to laugh.  I mean, REALLY!!  How much worse can it get??   ;D  It is something of a comfort, actually, because, even in those times when the CH are at their worst and life seems not worth living, I can grit my way through knowing that, if I survived CH-plus-Topiramate-induced kidney stones, I can survive anything!  At least, that's what I tell myself, hahahaha.

[Art]

Oh, ClusterHeadSurvivor, you are quite right, I have not had surgery and from what I've read, this is not a viable option, for me, anyway.

[spiny]

Art,

Welcome! The only thing I did not see already covered with the excellent advice given is what kind of mask do you have for your O2? The Optimask is superb and inexpensive. Also, what is your flow rate of O2.

All the best,

spiny

[Art]

Hi spiny

I have to admit that I have absolutely no idea what kind of mask I am using.  My PA ordered it and I just use it.  I had already seen references to bag type on this board and have been skating around here, and on the internet at large, trying to figure it out.  My mask doesn't fit the descriptions of masks I have seen on several web sites.  My mask does not have a bag; I secure it to my face with elastic bands on the mask and breathe directly from the tank, which is connected to the bag by a plastic tube.  The mask has small air vents that allow air to pass both ways.

As for flow rate, the regulator is set at 15 lpm, the highest setting.  I am going to find out if I can get a regulator with a higher flow rate.  Maybe I will ask the O2 supplier about mask options as well.

[CHfather]

Art, if you look under the MENU tab on the left side of the page, you'll see the CB oxygen page.  Lots of info there.  When you say >>which is connected to the bag by a plastic tube<< it confuses me, since you said you don't have a bag.  Did you mean "connected to the mask by a plastic tube"??  That would also be confusing to me.  Unless you have a demand valve system, where you press a button to breathe in, and there's no bag involved (unusual to get this, but considered a very good thing)--but that would also be confusing to me, because the masks on demand valve systems typically don't have those vent holes (though it could).

The mask you want is called a non-rebreather mask. On that kind of mask, a bag fills with O2 that you then breathe in, and then it refills for your next inhalation.  Higher flow rates allow the bag to fill faster, which make it easier to use deeper inhalation strategies.  The mask spiny mentioned is the O2ptimask, a non-rebreather made especially for people with CH:  www.clusterheadaches.com/khxc.   Like I said above, if you somehow got a demand valve system, that would be good.

Things you want to do with current mask: block up those air vents, so you're not getting room air with what you breathe in (unless they have effective disc-shaped thingies/gaskets in them that allow the air to flow out but not in), and maybe cut off the strap (or don't use it) and just hold the mask firmly to your face, in case you fall asleep while doing your O2.

[Bejeeber]

It sure is good to see all the excellent advice you're getting here Art.

The tried, tested and widely adopted partial trex doses and power user O2 approaches for aborts, plus the busting for prevention - I'm hoping these could revolutionize your CH experience.

Certainly the busting has done just that for some former chronics around here. 

[Art]

You were right, I goofed, I DID mean "connected to the mask by a plastic tube."  There is no bag.  And there is no demand button.  I am going to take it to my O2 supplier and find out what it is.

The advice to remove the straps is well-taken.  I have fallen asleep several times using O2 to abort those horrifying middle-of-the-night episodes.  I don't use the straps any longer.

[alleyoop]

Art, it sounds to me like you are using a generic non-rebreather mask with holes on the sides.  Until you get something better like a ClusterMask (sp?) or simply a mouth piece, you will want to tape over the holes on both sides. 

The object is to get 100% 02 inhaled in with no room air.  Inhale pure 02, remove the mask and exhale -- deep breaths in and out as fast as you can.  That's where a bag or higher lpm regulator comes in handy.  As CHf said, read the Oxygen page under the Menu button at top left side of this page.

[spiny]

Art,

Cool. Now we have the bag covered!!! The one sold on here is great and so is the service.

Many find 25LPM is a better flow rate, especially at the beginning when you are breathing fast and hard. Since your O2 is prescription, I am not sure if their regulators go beyond 15LPM. The type of regulator will depend on the type of tank. So, if after getting a proper mask and using good breathing methods you are still having some failure rate, we can discuss regulators!

spiny

[Dallas Denny]

Art, it sounds to me like you are using a generic non-rebreather mask with holes on the sides.  Until you get something better like a ClusterMask (sp?) or simply a mouth piece, you will want to tape over the holes on both sides. 

The object is to get 100% 02 inhaled in with no room air.  Inhale pure 02, remove the mask and exhale -- deep breaths in and out as fast as you can.  That's where a bag or higher lpm regulator comes in handy.  As CHf said, read the Oxygen page under the Menu button at top left side of this page.

This info is sooooo gonna change your CH life as you know it Art!!!!  I have consistently and routinely aborted hits in 5 to 8 minutes during the past 7 years after gaining this life changing knowledge!!  It won't abort a cycle, but it will allow you to cut back or eliminate the trex....I used 1 during a 5 mo cycle 2 years ago, and none during this years bout!!

DD

[Art]

Thanks so much everybody, I feel more optimistic than I have in some time.

[MoxieGirl]

Hi Art,

I think you have a good (if that's the right word) benchmark for what you can survive. My worst year was my first year with Clusters - 2007. I had 1 single headache that lasted 7 months! I do mean non-stop, day and night, for 7 months. On top of that I was getting hit a couple times a month, or more, with migraines and then clusters left right and centre.

For a time, the clusters had a regular pattern, Tuesday night, 7pm or 7:20pm was a pretty certain thing. Apart from that, they could attack anytime, anywhere.

I call it my year of Hell, and that is my benchmark for when things get bad.

Hang in there.

MG

[weatherman]

Hi Art,

Welcome, and sorry to see ya ..... as the typical ClusterHead greeting goes.

Many of us have been in exactly the same situation.   Will the benefits of Psylocybin outweight the risks?  Legal, moral and just fears of "tripping" will keep most people away.  Its also difficult to obtain and time consuming to grow.  No, you're not paranoid.  You are quite normal.

The difference-maker is the pain levels.  More attempts at finding alternate solutions for relief have probably been tried for Cluster Headaches, than most illnesses.  Even death is a solution.  Despirate situations need radical solutions.

Although I have much to lose, the benefit of growing and using FAR OUTWEIGHS getting caught and prosecuted.  I fully understand that the risks are huge and the chances for negative outcome is small, but I will take the responsibility for my actions.  The extended periods of relief are worth ANYTHING.  I would gladly stand in front of a judge and explain my situation.

It helps that I was familar with Mushrooms and have an understanding wife that supports my illegal activities.  She's is very aware of what the ugly side of CH looks like.

Seriously, try growing at home.  It's not very expensive and pretty easy to do.  The quality control is good and there is limited exposure to arrest.  I don't think anyone is going to be prosecuted for growing their own medicine for one of the most painful medical conditions known.

Best of luck and wish ya many pain-free days .......

weatherman

[Art]

Thanks weatherman!  Your message reminds me of one good thing working in my favor.  I too have an understanding and supportive wife.  She is a classic rule-follower and very conservative when it comes to drugs, but she has seen what CHs do to me and, somewhat to my surprise, has told me that she will support whatever I decide to do, including busting with shrooms.  She wants to be there to help me through it.  In one very important way, I am blessed, and it seems right for me to keep sight of that especially today.

Merry Christmas to you and all my new friends.