Research on new tryptamine option

[Lieutenant2]

CH friends,

While this is pending publication in a few different places, I wanted to make it available here in the event that it may be helpful to one or two of you in certain countries. I will present it without much comment, it speaks for itself.

A small amount of background, I initially set out to find out why some of us were getting such inconsistent results with "busting" methods. The part that I was really stuck on was dosage control, especially relating to my own experiences with LSA. How did I really know how much LSA I was getting when I extracted RC seeds? And in addition to the LSA, what other chemicals were being extracted? How could I accurately track my results if I'm getting wildly different amounts of tryptamine every dose, along with dozens of other chemicals which may interfere? I was never a psilo user, but the same caveat applies.

This started my search for an indole molecule that would give me an exact dose without any other chemicals interfering. I tried very hard to create a pure extraction of LSA, but failed to get more than globs of crystals that were potent, but still nowhere close to pure. Reaching the end of my own chemistry abilities, I turned to Alexander Shulgin's work. After about six months of research, I found my molecule. Pure, orally bioavailable, relatively safe, very low-grade side effects.

Disclaimer: This is nothing new, only an option to supplement current busting treatments. I present it only because it may help one person. Because I am actively engaged in other research, I can't engage in discussion or debate here, if anybody wants to. That's just not my thing. I will do my best to answer any questions via the contact info provided. I also want to add a huge thanks to all of you here who helped me when I was hurting. . .you bought me the time to do research like this. There is more to come!

http://figshare.com/articles/Treatment_of_Cluster_Headache_Symptoms_using_Synthetic_Tryptamine_N_N_Diallyl_5_Methoxytryptamine/1119697

[ThatHurtsMyHead]

You F'ing  ROCK...  !!!!

Great to hear of your continued success busting your CH!  Are you coming to the buster conference in Nashtown in Sept?

J

[Lieutenant2]

Thank you, sir. Small steps! And yes, I'll be there in September. Look forward to meeting you, you were one of the guys who helped me out the most at the beginning!

[spiny]

Wow. That is a terrific paper.  Thank you for all your work and effort!!!

As THMH said, : You rock!!!

[CHfather]

Thanks, Lt2.  I saw your handle on the list of people who were at the site a few days ago, and immediately wondered what you and your always-curious mind were doing these days.  Now we know!  Looking forward to meeting you at the conference.

[CHfather]

I get that Lt2 isn't going to/can't participate in follow-up discussions, but looking at this again, I see that 5MeO-DALT seems to be a lot more effective -- in these two cases -- against CH than the usual busting agents.  Many PF days immediately after one administration, and after each subsequent one.  This is not the normal pattern for busting, except in very exceptional cases. No slapbacks, either, clearly.

So this doesn't seem to me to be only a matter of more reliable dosing, or even of what Lt2 says, >>only an option to supplement current busting treatments.<<  To the extent that these results are reproducible, 5MeO-DALT looks like a far better treatment than current busting substances.  You just can't attribute these results to dosing reliability, because plenty of people take reliable doses of psilo or LSD ("reliable" in the sense that they get effects that tell them they were ingesting good stuff in sufficient quantity) without results that are in any way comparable to these.

I've been burned by getting my hopes up for a lot of stuff (Acetium and Mamajuana, most recently) that didn't do what I hoped.  So to the extent that I'm raving here, it's very strongly tempered by my full awareness that this is two people with no controls.  But I wonder whether anyone has a theory about why it might be that this chemical seems to be a more effective CH treatment.  And of course I wonder, where/how do I get some, today?

[Lieutenant2]

Well, in all fairness, I can pop in to answer a basic question now and then. The main thing I can't do is debate or defend my work here, unfortunately. That has to be done elsewhere (as well as reproduced on a larger scale). That being said. . .

Personally, I don't think this is necessarily "better" than any other busting option, and in fact may be "weaker" for intractable patients who regularly use high doses of psilo or LSD or LSA and get very little relief. On a molecular level, it is doing the same thing.

Where I see an advantage is twofold:

1. The patient is getting ONE chemical. Everything we put in our bodies has a ripple effect. When we take LSA, we are also getting dozens of other chemicals, some of which act on the brain. The LSA does its job, but those other compounds are in there doing other stuff. Might be good stuff, might be bad stuff, who knows?

2. Think about dosing with tryptamines like any other medication. If your doctor puts you on, say, Lipitor for cholesterol, you are told to take 20mg per day. If you take 5mg one day, then 200mg another, then maybe 50mg, it doesn't all average out in the end. You're better off taking a consistent dose, same dose, every time. I see tryptamines the same way. If I can find a successful dosage and repeat it precisely, I am much better off than just taking random doses and waiting for my symptoms to return. Just my theory, I have no hard science to back that up.

So, I guess I would caution you not to get too excited. This treatment was tested on an extremely small sample size, and I may or may not be able to speak from personal experience with it.   

I will add this disclaimer, though. If this is something you feel you want to try, make sure you do everything safely and accurately. Like any other strong drug, you can really F this up if you cut any corners or do it half-assed.

[CHfather]

Well, I don't want to dispute you about the results of your own study (and if you don't want to engage further with me about this here, I completely understand -- just please don't feel that I'm attacking you; I'm just digging to try to get what I can from this), but here's what I'm reading.

Patient A: PF for 11 days after first dose. No slapbacks.

Patient B: PF for 18 days after first dose. No slapbacks.

Patient A: PF 16 days after second dose. No slapbacks.

Patient B: PF 35 days (except one day) after second dose. No slapbacks.

Both patients: Essentially "in remission" for the remainder of the 60 days after the second or third dose (with continued dosing). [Of course, as you say, maybe Patient B's cycle just ended. But A has chronic CH.]

I have already acknowledged the many limitations of this for projecting it to others. But these results are better than at least 90 percent of what I've seen here with busting.  And I don't see how the results are attributable to more consistent dosing when the first dose, before any consistency or inconsistency has been established, resulted in such long-lasting PF time (in these two reported cases, if I have to say it again).   

. . . high doses of psilo or LSD or LSA . . . On a molecular level, it is doing the same thing.

  You would know this; I wouldn't.  But assuming that many busters are using compounds that contain sufficient substances to eventually impact their CH, most are simply not getting results like the ones reported in this study.  So, even though I can't contribute anything to looking into it, it does not seem clear to me that 5MeO-DALT should be assumed to be working in the same way as the more common busting agents.  Maybe, as your discussion suggests (to me--you don't draw this conclusion), it's because the 5MeO-DALT is pure and the other busting agents might contain some chemicals that somehow work against CH treatment at the same time as other ingredients work toward it.  Whatever . . . I'm just saying that if these results were reproducible, I think they could tell us something important about how these substances treat CH.  Maybe the slapbacks that are commonly associated with some or all busting substances, which do not occur in this report, actually aren't signs that those substances are working (as we have assumed) and are just effects of those other chemicals in the busting substances.  This alone would be valuable to know, it seems to me.

[Lieutenant2]

All very valid points, for sure. I appreciate your excellent feedback!

I guess all I can say is, at this point, I'm not willing to form any conclusions/opinions other than what I already know, which is basically:

This is a tryptamine molecule that should work just like other tryptamine molecules for CH patients (at least on paper).

For two patients with limited experience using tryptamines, it did.

I have a personal "good feeling" about being able to control the exact dosage and also that there are no other chemicals getting into the brain, but that's all it really is, a warm fuzzy on my part. Proving that would require a level of experimentation that I'm just not smart enough to do.

So in a nutshell, I can't condone anybody experimenting with this substance, and I can't stop anybody from experimenting with this substance. Yes, I would like to expand the data beyond two people, but I'm also not really equipped to do that. So this may become more of a crowd-sourced experiment than an official trial, but I'm cool with that. After all, that's basically how we all got to where we are today, right?   

[ThatHurtsMyHead]

First let me say I think it's awesome that we're continuing to search for something that works 'better' than the last thing we tried.  Eventually finding something that can get us to a 100% painfree state is the goal!

While I think the test was absolutely awesome, (and something we need more of IMHO).  I won't be taking this anytime soon.   Reason below:

Years ago when I learned of shrooms, LSD and LSA from this website I went out to the internet and read, read, read.  I found that the most informative information was on the recreational drug boards.  The people on those boards do some really stupid stuff, but at the same time, they provide some really good insight into, - What, why, how much, when, what happens, how long etc.  I've read over about a dozen trip reports of people using 20+mg of 5MeO-DALT and the majority of the tip reports are bad experiences.  Some are down right scary just to read.

I draw my conclusion of not trying this based on 1) High likelihood of a bad experience (bad trip).  2) The very high frequency of dosage required to keep the CH away (thereby increased chance of a bad trip, based on increased need to dose).

That said, I still think LT2 has done an AWESOME thing here.  The tests were well documented and well structured.  Thereby providing some VERY good insight into something else to get us closer and closer to our hopeful future pain free time, and free from needing to take anything   We need more studies like this to help us zero in on what works best for most!

J

   

[Lieutenant2]

^ Also very valid. In no way is this a "safe" chemical to put in your body. I guess I would consider it almost exactly on par with any of our other tryptamine options, including psilo/LSA/LSD. The potential for an unhealthy experience is there with all of them, and should not be downplayed.

I will say that I also did plenty of reading on Erowid, DMT-Nexus, Blulight, etc. just to see what reports were out there. There are some scary reports, most of them acts of sheer stupidity by people actually seeking out a trip. High doses, frequent doses, combinations with other drugs. . .some of these people are morons.   :-?

Experience-wise, one interesting thing that was noted every time by both participants, all effects are completely gone in two hours, every time. Until we have something other than tryptamines, we'll always have this risk. But I'm working on that, too.   

[mrweekend]

This is really interesting. I like the part about all effects completely gone after two hours. Hopefully a large scale trial can be looked at, even if it's just a patient group run exercise.

Great job, Lt.2

[Lieutenant2]

Thanks, Mr Wknd! I honestly wish it were something better, that would work for everybody, with no legality issues or side effects. But for now, it is what it is, and I figured it's better to have it out in the open for discussion than locked away in my basement.

Unfortunately, I've probably done all I can with it. I've quickly learned that without "PhD" or "MD" after your name, and support from a university or big pharma company, you really can't do anything at all. So I will be content to be a guerrilla scientist and just try to keep fixing shit on my own! I have a list of chemicals here that I feel show a lot of promise, and I will work my way through them one at a time and make my results public when I can. 

[didgens]

https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dmt/5meo_dmt.shtml

[didgens]

well,, you give me a new bone im gonna chase it .. sorry

http://bitnest.ca/external.php?id=%257DbxUgY%255CC%2540%251BD%252A%253A-D%251BU%255BP%2500JIrc%2560%2517W

[Lieutenant2]

For what it's worth, the Elsevier article posted by didgens is a very good synopsis of this chemical. I prefer to stick to the science side, and don't put much credibility in trip reports from recreational drug websites. In my opinion, the only difference between this and an approved pharmaceutical is the people who developed it. A drug is a drug.

[HugLife]

Awesome. And the Erowid link above is to the 5-meo-DMT vault, so if you read the effects and experiences, they differ drastically from those of 5-meo-DALT.

[Lieutenant2]

Good catch, HL. . .It's also very important to note for anybody considering any of the synthetic tryptamines (there are a bunch of them) that a lot of them have similar names and molecular structures, but are drastically different.

The reason I selected 5-MeO-DALT was because of its high bioavailability (taking a capsule is always preferred to injection, insufflation, etc.) and relatively low risk of serious side effects. The extremely short half-life is a plus as well.

Dabbling with any of the other compounds puts you in virgin territory, and I know from anecdotal evidence that some are much scarier than others.

[par]

I tried this 5 days ago, and actually felt/obtain 1 maybe 2 PF nights, not on the first night, but the second - but 3rd had ghost and 4th and 5th it was back to waking every 2 hours. Possibly, my dose was low and ineffective (tried to get 15mg, but could have been as low as 10mg due to scales issue). Going to try 20 tonight, but keen to hear any ongoing trials attempts if anyone else is doing this.?

Possibly the door was closed (is this possible?), I felt no noticeable effects from the drug. I believe supplied from reputable research site. I mainly CH nightly after about 2 hours asleep, and then have to hit the O2 for 30mins. It has been much worse previously, with full blown day and night attacks. However, mm, has lessened the pain by lots to an annoyance and sleep deprivation only.

[Bejeeber]

Thanks for reporting about this here par - looking forward to your next update(s).

Glad to hear the mm has significantly lessened the severity and frequency of your CH - here's hoping you'll be able to extinguish the CH cycle entirely now!

[par]

Well last night, 20mg. No noticeable drug effects, 3 trips to the o2 required.

Questions:

1: Does body mass have a bearing on how much is the correct dose.

2: Empty or full stomach, would eating whilst waiting for drug to kickin dilute the effect somewhat?

3: Will the door now be shut for 5 days

4: Any easy way to check if what I have is right?

[Tony Only]

Magnificient work. I don't have enough words. Closing comments made a guy emotional who has always thought that in the end we are going to save ourselves. I do have a mighty fine hat and I am raising it up on high for doing this and sharing it with us.

[par]

Update: 1 very light ghost woke me up last night, could almost have not bothered with O2 (but was scared not to), other than that, a good night. Maybe the dalt was large enough, although I did also throw in 50mg V3

[Lieutenant2]

Hi Par,

I'm sorry I seem to have neglected a couple questions you've asked. I haven't been following up too much here. In short:

Body mass should have no bearing at all, since this is a tryptamine that works in our brains and doesn't have to be metabolized through any of our major organs. (The fact that is starts working so quickly indicates that it is almost certainly absorbed directly through the stomach.)

As far as empty stomach/with food, it probably doesn't matter. If you get any side effects that feel like nausea or indigestion, it may be better to take with an empty stomach.

Dosage-wise, I would personally be hesitant to go much higher. I don't think this is a "quantity" thing. I do know people who have experienced up to 30mg, and the effect on their CH was no different than 15mg. Above that, you start getting into a "recreational" dosage (commonly reported as 40mg and up), and that's just not my thing.

I'll throw a couple questions your way, if you don't mind:

Are you a CH-only person, or do you have multiple headache types (migraine, NPDH, SUNCT, any of those)?

You mentioned that you've had good results with MM, how often did you have to dose with that substance? What amounts?

You also mentioned 50mg of V3? I'm not familiar with that, can you tell me what that is?

Thanks! I am really interested in gathering anecdotal information from people. Although I can't use it to add to the study, it will help me understand some of my theories a bit better!

EDIT: I missed one question. How do you know you received pure 5-MeO-DALT? Very difficult to answer. Assuming you don't have a chemistry lab at your disposal. . .First, what's the reputation of your supplier? Did it come with any paperwork, like a lab assay? (This can be fudged, of course, but every little bit helps!) What does it look like? It should be a bright white crystalline powder, almost fibrous (particles can look like tine hairs when they clump together). It should be dry and fluffy, and shouldn't clump easily or stick together. Onset of effects should happen between 10-20 minutes after ingesting, depending on the type of capsule you're using.

[par]

I used to have migraines 20 years ago, but that stopped completely (possibly an optical thing) - very rarely do I ever get a "normal" headache now.

CH profile: bi-annually, normally around march for about 3 months. Has been the same for the last 8 years (4 times). I am 47.

However, this time (5th time) it started a little bit later and am now into my 5th month(!!eek).

This is the first time that I have used MM - I was dosing around the 1.0 mark of dried MM strained into a nice lemon tea. I did try them raw once - but that was NOT good.

It generally makes me twitchy and causes my skin to crawl. I have been known to giggle a little on them. However, since MMing - I have very few daytime CH's and the nighttime ones are not as painful as I have had them in the past, and manageable with O2 alone - I used sumatriptan once in 5 months and have not taken anything else for this other than Vit D3, MM and DALT.

I was taking MM every 5 days, but was aware of the inconsistancy in the dosage - sometimes effected sometimes not. I tried the DALT after reading your post and waiting 5 days from the last MM.

I am not a tripper and wouldn't want to be - I measured out 20mg last time, was expecting to get a little light headed, but felt nothing - and then with the night CH's still persisting wondered whether there might be something that needs adjusting.

V3 - vitamin D3 - sorry.

5-MeO-DALT - bought here https://www.brc-finechemicals.com/5-meo-dalt.html - it is dry, but will clump slightly. haven't noticed the hair like structure but will get out the microscope later. It is bitter I found. I used a paracetamol plastic capsule that I had emptied first - maybe a little residue left within.

Hope that all helps - as the 2nd night was a minimal CH, I am hoping to go PF tonight, but we will see. Will keep updating and may try 25mg, but only if I cannot sustain 5 PF nights.

I believe that DALT is about to go on the bad list in UK following some media fed hype. If it works for me I would be looking to get my stocks up before then - is there a shelf life ?

Hope that helps - thanks for the effort your putting into this. If its successful, you might save a great amount of pain (and lives...!!)

Thank YOU.