The lengths to which CH'ers are willing to go.....

[razorPP]

Atlas, did it help your CH? How did you mix your MJ? Did you use your first batch? Two shots felt like it was to much alcohol.

[Atlas]

To me it feels like something in the mamajuana is hitting the some of the same receptors as the MM.  It might explain why it's helping the clusters.  Just wondering if anyone else had the same sensations (the "body buzz").

I'm getting mixed results.  I'm out of cycle, but have been using it to squash some stronger shadows.  Sometimes it helps a lot, but sometimes it makes things worse.  I think the problem in the alcohol.  Alcohol can be a trigger for me, but usually isn't.  When the MJ makes things worse it's about what I would expect from drinking the equivalent amount of beer, rum, etc. 

I don't want to discourage anyone who doesn't have an alcohol trigger.  I think the MJ helps, I'm just not sure I can take the alcohol when I'm having shadows.

[Atlas]

Razor, I'm using the Don Ramon brand mix of twigs and leaves that I got on ebay (seems like that's what most of us are trying). I mixed it with a little honey, some red wine, and some old Bacardi rum I already had on hand.   Yes, I did use the first batch.  Tasted terrible.  The next two batches tasted much better (which was expected).  The first batch had the same effects as the second and third batches.  Besides the taste I didn't notice a difference.

In my experience, taking one shot of MJ has 50% chance of shutting down the shadows, but a 50% chance of making them worse.  By worse I mean turning a kip 2-3 into a 4-5.

Three shots of MJ has always killed the shadows.  I know this is counter intuitive.  More alcohol should be more of a trigger.  It doesn't seem to be that way.  My guess is that consuming more of whatever the active ingredient is knocks out the shadows, and then the alcohol is no longer a trigger.  Three shots also produces that "body buzz" that's similar to a low dose of MM.

Just my experience so far.  I will be doing more "experiments".  I welcome any feedback, even if your experience contradicts mine.

[razorPP]

Atlas, Are you on the D3? I am, just trying to get a baseline between us.

[MimiP]

My understanding is that alcohol is very heat sensitive so evaporates quickly when heated to the right temperature. This could easily be looked up. Chefs and others who use alcohol to steep tinctures, probably already know the answer to what this temperature is.

[MJ]

According to a book I have Petiveria alliacea is used by the Shipibo-Conibo as an ayahuasca additive.  They say it has "hallucinogenic properties" and esteem it as a "master teacher of the healing arts"  Supposedly the active constituents are nineteen different coumarins, isoarboriol, triathiolan, and trithiolaniacine. 

And no, I do not have any idea what the hell any of that does

I suspect this one ingredient could and should be isolated for testing on CH.

Read Leslies update. It is certainly getting a lot of attention as of late.

All the other ingredients have a touch of anti inflammatory abilities or mild hormonal type abilities that may help.

The amanu stands out as the biggest possibility for benefit in this concoction..

http://rain-tree.com/anamu.htm#.UyZpEVJOWpo

MJ

[DrTy2]

As I've told you: antibiotic and anti-inflammatory properties.

Wich, more or less, is what most "healing" remedies do, except this one has also strong cytotoxic properties, together with powerful immuno-stymulant (and immuno-modulant) properties (thus it's an anti-cancer remedy).

How that could be responsible for CH pain relief, expecially with so much rapidity, still it's completely out of my reach.

I don't think anamu is the answer we're looking for, probably it's just helping out the other herbs, but it's defintely worth a try to test it alone.

[Atlas]

Razor, I've been taking D3 for years, long before I ever heard of clusterbusters.  I take 10k in the winter and 5k the rest of the year.

I know there is a vitamin D3 FAQ type page on the cluster busters site with specifics on how to treat CH.  At some point I will check that out.

[Napoli]

Fascinating stuff guys!  Keep up the fine reporting!  Wishing you all the best.  Readings new accessible treatments always makes me giddy inside

[Ricardo]

I suspect this one ingredient could and should be isolated for testing on CH.

Read Leslies update. It is certainly getting a lot of attention as of late.

All the other ingredients have a touch of anti inflammatory abilities or mild hormonal type abilities that may help.

The amanu stands out as the biggest possibility for benefit in this concoction..

This was my initial thoughts on this as well, that the one herb that has been reputed to be somewhat psychedelic and is used in ayahuasca recipes is probably the one that is helping us, but now I am not so convinced. 

For the past couple years I have been researching an interesting idea that I first heard Sasha Shulgin talking about and it is very much rooted in science.  The idea is that certain essential oils of certain plants are just one step away from becoming psychedelic amphetamines.  Shulgin went on to say that that the process needed to make these essential oils into psychedelics is completely possible in our own body.  We make chemical reactions in our body all the time and theoretically, with the help of other substances we could possibly turn these ordinary substances that we consume all the time into psychedelics. 

Here is a sample from Shulgin's amazing book PIHKAL (phenethylamines I have Known and Loved)-

"Elsewhere, I have made comparisons between myristicin and MMDA, and between safrole and MDA. And here there is a similar parallel between elemicin and TMA. What are these relationships between the essential oils and the amphetamines? In a word, there are some ten essential oils that have a three carbon chain, and each lacks only a molecule of ammonia to become an amphetamine. So, maybe these essential oils, or "almost" amphetamines, can serve as an index for the corresponding real amphetamine counterparts. I had originally called this family the "natural" amphetamines, but my son suggested calling them the "essential" amphetamines, and I like that. At the time that I had synthesized TMA, back there in the '50s, I had the impulse to explore this body of Essential Amphetamines. As the old folk-wisdom says: "Nature is trying to tell us something." "

For more on Shulgin's ideas on essential oils and the similarity and possibility of turning them into psychedelic amphetamines, read his section on TMA in PIHKAL.

https://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal157.shtml

I bring all this up because the Mama Juana mix has both Eugenol (from cloves) and Methyl Chavicol (from basil) and these are 2 essential oils that have gotten a good bit of attention for possibly being able to create a psychedelic experience. (Star Anise has also been listed as a possibility along these same lines) I should reword that...There are people that swear that by combining certain essential oils with certain enzyme inhibitors they can get these substances to be psychoactive. This goes along the same lines as ayahuasca, where the DMT usually gets broken down by your MAO A enzyme but the brew contains a MAO A inhibitor, thus making the DMT orally active.  This time though we are talking about a very large group of enzymes that are referred to as the CYP450 enzyme systems.  There are a huge number of different enzymes in this system, each one metabolizing different things.  A good example that you probably have heard of is how grapefruit juice can make certain medications stronger.  Grapefruit specifically inhibits the P450 CYP3A4 enzyme, so any drug that is metabolized by this enzyme will end up stronger when taken with it.

Here is one persons report on combining Methyl Chavicol (ingredient in the essential oil of basil) with German Chamomile (which supposedly inhibits the CYP1A2 enzyme)-

"I tripped on it two days in a row without much tolerance on the second day I dosed. I did 250 mg, and then 300 mg on day two. This time I just used german chamomile with it, nothing else.

On the second day I had strong visual effects from 300 mg. It was crappity smackING AWESOME! With my eyes closed I saw shapes shifting, spinning, dancing, it was NICE! My mood, oh man, I kept laughing at everything. All the jokes on TV cracked me up. My serious vibe was totally gone. I felt on top of the world, I kept smiling all day.

Dude, all my friends are in shock that we are tipping off of basil and chamomile. They're like DID I DIE AND GO TO HEAVEN? I'm serious man. This stuff is CHEAP. This stuff is NATURAL. This stuff is totally crappity smacking LEGAL. And it's like the best antidepressant I have ever tried."

For the full thread on this, read here:

http://herbs.mxf.yuku.com/topic/3784181/The-Psychedelic-Effects-of-Sweet-Basil-Oil-Methyl-Chavicol?page=2#.UymfIfldVOE

There are quite a few people that have tried these sort of combinations and gotten good results, there are quite a few that have not.  To me, it seems an interesting idea but I don't have the time and money to experiment with all this (but maybe YOU do ) so I have put these ideas on the backburner for a while.

But this thread has gotten me really interested in it again, because just like we saw how native peoples were way ahead of western medicine with their knowledge of combing plants to make DMT orally active I would not be surprised to find that native peoples have figured out the way to make these essential oils psychoactive. 

There are a number of plants in this mixture that have not been studied in much detail I do not find it that unlikely that some of these herbs are inhibiting enzymes, making the other ingredients work their magic.  Obviously there is the whole point that people have not reported tripping off of mama juana, but at the same time a number of people have reported good results from small amounts of shrooms under the tongue in doses that do not produce psychedelic effects.  The alcohol would definitely make these substances hit you pretty fast as well.

I agree completely that we should be making individual tinctures with the individual herbs and trying them that way.  If the ideas that I have thrown out there are really responsible for the help that people are getting than individually they will do nothing.  It could be a combo of just 2 of the herbs, or it could actually take all of them.  Experimentation is the only thing that will bring answers.  I'm planning on experimenting myself but so many things that bring relief to others do nothing for me so I'm not holding my breath.  (It may also take a while for me to get to the experimentation, it has been quite a busy year)

I could go on and on for quite a long time but for now I will leave it at this and a word of caution...If you are interested enough to try out the methods listed here with essential oils and inhibiting enzymes you need to remember that these enzymes metabolize medications.  If you are on any medications you need to find out how the body is metabolizing them so you will know if you are making them stronger, weaker or having no effect on them.  The one that I know off the top of my head is that Sumatriptan is metabolized by MAO A enzyme not CYP450 enzymes so with this kind of thing you are safe there...But also good to remember a line I heard from Terence McKenna where he said that ALL tryptamines are MAO A inhibitors.  In my experience this is true, but only at pretty high levels.  (On the other hand the psychedelic amphetamine MDMA seems to me to be a pretty decent MAO A inhibitor) 

Every day we find more info, more clues.  This herb mixture definitely has my attention.

-Ricardo

[Dallas Denny]

Great post Ricardo!!  I'm really looking forward to your being able to start experimenting....sooooo hoping that this will be a magic bullet for ya brother!!

DD

[Purple]

wow Thanks ! Ricardo, great thinking !

and great reference, I got to know Sasha Shulgin and his work especially since joining here and he has all my respect

...like we saw how native peoples were way ahead of western medicine with their knowledge of combing plants to make DMT orally active...

way ahead, and so is CB with contributors like you  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

[razorPP]

Week 5 on Mamajuana, still very positive results. I had one evening with a strong hit, but I got some news that was just to stressful for my brain to handle, and CH won. The next day MJ was doing it's thing, blocking pain for me. I'm still on am and evening shot. I'm starting my 4th batch, batch 3 & 4 soaked for 13 days, 750 ml last me about 14 days. I remind myself all the time, smile ... your pf mostly, just saying ... get you some MJ, peace

[tanner the first]

I know that I said that I would post updates on my various (busting) results but just when I get ready to claim partial success I have gotten slammed with almost a week of horror. I will keep trying with the attitude that the methods just are not working YET.

Still trying though! PF wishes to all.

[torn2bits]

Truly amazing results guys....

Very happy for any and all who have gained 10 percent help from the

MJ mixture...torn

[spiny]

Ok. I started the mamajuana yesterday. Took a shot for an early morning hit, but didn't really trust it, so I drank coffee too. Then, I took a jigger last night.

Since last summers surgery, I have not had two pf weeks consecutively yet. That is not a good sign because normally my cycle starts later and ends before now.

No such luck this year. I had one pf day and night last week. Otherwise, I am getting 2-6 hits per day. Night before last was 5, starting at 11pm and ending at 10am. Last night, I just had two.  Well, if you don't count the wake-up hit. So, better than some nights.

I will keep you posted on how this goes from here forward. If I make a week pf it will be party time! Well, without alcohol.

I mixed my batch using the recipe packed with the herbs. They are making a liqueur and so add a lot of sweet. I used red wine, molasses, honey, and vodka. Nasty sweet! bleech. This time I just used one oz honey and vodka so hopefully that tastes better.

spiny

[Bejeeber]

I am getting 2-6 hits per day

All I can think to say about that is WTF??!! What a rip off.  >

Fingers crossed that the "Over the lips, past the gums, look out you f***ing beast idiot, here mamjuana comes" counter attack will conk your dragon a good one on the noggin and we'll see how he likes it for a change.

[Dallas Denny]

I am getting 2-6 hits per day

All I can think to say about that WTF??!! What a rip off.  >

Fingers crossed that the "Over the lips, past the gums, look out you f***ing beast idiot, here mamjuana comes" counter attack will conk your dragon a good one on the noggin and see how he likes it for a change.

Awww Jeebs....what a way with words you have!!!

What Jeebs sez Spiny!! 

[tanner the first]

What is the chemical in this stuff that mimics Vit. M as far as stimulating salivation? I still cannot endorse it or proclaim that it is snake oil but I am still trying it in between harder to obtain things.

Back to seeds for me for another try. I'm not quitting easy!!!

Looking into the nerve block........Tim

[razorPP]

I'm not sure what to think, crap I had results with MJ and others get little or no results. I have reordered MJ to see if my first batch had something different in it. I got one bag on the first order and the reorder has two bags, hum.  I'll mix and report back in. peace

[spiny]

razor,

I just started taking it yesterday, so don't worry about results yet for me.

Last night I had two hits. Both aborted with O2 in RECORD time! No wake up at 5am hit though! I slept till 6:30!!!! Wheeeee.

No shadows yet today, but it is early for them to start.

It does make you feel odd for about an hour after taking the am shot. Pm did not give that feeling.

I am also being conservative since I have many plant allergies and mj gave me hives yesterday morning. They only lasted an hour or two thankfully. None last night though. Since it is made from plants I could be allergic to something in it. We will see. But that is why I am sticking to two shots per day for now.

I will stick it out for at least a week to give it time. Well, that is the plan at this point.

Cheers!

spiny

[Ricardo]

Whenever I get the money and time this is what I'm going to use...

http://organicalcohol.com/store/index.php/organic-cane-alcohol-1-gallon

190 proof pharmaceutical grade cane sugar alcohol.  With it being 190 proof you can evaporate the alcohol out of it pretty easily if you want.

-Ricardo

[spiny]

Ok. Time for an update. Started mj on Apr 3rd.

It went like this: Apr 3: 3 K7 wake up hits

                         Apr 4: 2 K7 wake up hits

                         Apr 5: 5 K7 wake up hits

                         Apr 6: Stopped mj. Tried a shot for an afternoon hit and it just went on forever, low level.

                                    2 K7 wake up hits

                         Apr 7: PF night!!!!! 

So, it did not work for me. But, I would be happy to send someone my spare pack of mj for them to try.

I have now had two PF nights in the last month! 8-)

[Bejeeber]

it did not work for me...

 

2 things immediately come to mind:

1) That completely sux

2) That entirely blows

:'(

[razorPP]

MJ has stopped working, the Beast has had his way the last two days. oh well a pretty good pf run for this ol chronic, it was nice to see the other side. I'm still amazed no matter what gets thrown at the CH it finds a way to not be effected.  stay strong, peace...